Horrible accuracy with 10ml-2.

[Grouse]

Ok, I'm not trying to be difficult so bear with me here......

In my opinion, using Acraglas, Devcon, etc to bed a rifle should be used on a rifle that shoots well and you want it to shoot a bit better. Say in my case if my ML-10 shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards and I wanted to get it closer to 1" groups and tinkering with different loads was not doing it, then bedding the stock might help. But my Savage will not even shoot well enough to hunt whitetail deer at 100 yards. That accuracy or lack there of is that bad. No, I have not shot the other 3 ML-10's I know of in my area. But I have seen them shot and one of the owners has shot mine and is baffled. I don't pretend to be an expert marksman but I'm no rank beginner either. The two other men who have shot the rifle are both well experienced marksmen. Mountainam, I have the same problems with my breechplugs and primers as well. Savage sent me a different breechplug to try but it made no difference. I'll check loading pressure this weekend. The only other thing I can add is the sabots are in bad shape when I pick them up downrange. There is tearing of the petals at the base of the sabot (petals are still attatched though) and they just look bad. Really in rough shape compared to my old Knight or Huntsman.

IMO....Send the Gun back to Savage now. You will have it back in plenty of time for hunting.

 

[ShawnT]

JimG wrote:

In my opinion, using Acraglas, Devcon, etc to bed a rifle should be used on a rifle that shoots well and you want it to shoot a bit better. Say in my case if my ML-10 shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards and I wanted to get it closer to 1" groups and tinkering with different loads was not doing it, then bedding the stock might help.

Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here. :wink: As I stated, I have seen rifles with very poor/no bedding that shot 6" or even larger (this was the worst)due to excess stress added by the bedding. Once the rifle was properly bedded the loads that shot large groups then shot 1 1/2" or better. That was when load development really kicked in. My guess is that Savage just installs pillars but does not "Individually" install the pillars for that particular action, and they may even be installed by a vendor manufactuing the stock for them. I would still suggest the little test I mentioned earlier. I have no idea IF bedding is your problem, It was just a suggestion. Either way you have some others here that are more experienced with the Savage, so I will defer to them. Best of luck finding the problem or problems. Just don't give up.

 

[walleye seeker]

hmm

 

[JimG]

Update on the Savage. I eliminated one variable by pulling the scope + base and tried shooting it at 50 yards with the open sights. I tried 38grs of 5744 + a MMP black sabot + .452 250gr XTP. 3 shot group measured CTC was 2 9/16". I can shoot my H-R Huntsman with open sights better than that, however it at least was better than I've been getting with either scope I've mounted to the rifle. I tried 38grs of 5744 + a 250gr T/C Shockwave with the supplied sabot. Yes I know it's not an 'approved' load but at this point I'm willing to try anything. The 3 shot group at 50 yards measured 1 1/16" CTC. Much better. Then I tried both 42 and 44grs of 5744 and the MMP sabots + 250gr .452 XTP's. Both 3 shot 50 yard groups measured 2 7/8" CTC. Odd that both loads were exactly the same but whatever. I then tried another non approved load which consisted of 42grs of 5744 and 290gr boattail Barnes TMZ's with the supplied yellow sabots. Supposedly the boattail causes sabot failure in the ML-10 2, however I have plenty of them to try. All three shots went wild. Only one hit the 3'x3' backstop. The one that did was certainly tumbling in flight. No big surprise as these Barnes have a history of not working in the Savage, the flat base ones work well supposedly though. Now the big head scratcher- I went back to trying the 38grs of 5744 and the T/C Shockwaves and they would not group at all. All over the paper. I don't know if the Barnes sabots were depositing a bunch of plastic in the bore and I've got a bad plastic fouling issue now or what. Barrel was not hot at all. So that can't be it. This gun is just ornery. Driving me up the wall.

 

[DW]

Most guys recommend a thorough cleaning after a sabot failure due to the reason you mentioned.

 

[cmarfia]

My brothers Savage shot like CR*P regardless of load or bullet. We had the recoil lug glassed in and it made a WORLD of difference. It now shoots well, not great, with 300SW bonded fed primer and H4198 68gr. I'm a ML nut have 6 of them in my collection. The Savage seems to be a very picky gun. My personal favorite is my encore with 42gr of VV110 and 250 barnes.

 

[GM54-120]

cmarfia

Did you add the Sharp Shooter Supply machined recoil lug before bedding?

 

[rjhans53]

458 rem cor loc in a havester black crushed rib sabot, over 42 - 43 gr of 4759 if it doesn't shoot that send it back to savage and let them play with it

 

[cmarfia]

factory lug. just acraglassed it. the lug was touching nothing and on prbullet.com website they talk about it. basically all the recoil was being absorbed by two pillers. you can put playdough in the area and reassemble it. wait until you see hou much space there is all the way around.

 

[Dwayne]

I have had the exact same problem with my ML10-II.
Extremely poor accuracy. . . using high pressure Sabots, .452 250 grain conical.

At 100 yards, my groups were probably 12 to 14+ inches (at least).

I tried different loads of GP. . .

Finally. . .I said the heck with it. . .

I used HOMEMADE BP, 120 grains and a REAL conical.

My group when to about 3 inches at 100 yards.

Tried Pyrodex RS and have about a 4 inch group at 100.

I just can't seem to get any good smokeless powders out of my ML 10-II. And I am tired of spending and trying.

I don't shoot it anymore. . .I stick with my rock scratchers.

 

[GM54-120]

Dwayne

You say you shot a 250gr conical in a sabot. Did you mean a 250gr jacketed bullet? Soft lead bullets in a sabot are known to be rather poor shooters with smokeless. I would imagine a actual 250gr conical would be even worse in a sabot.

Larger conicals in the 440gr range or more should also shoot pretty good in a Savage with subs or real BP. The 1-24 twist is going to be a bit better with heavy/longer conicals vs lighter ones. A 250gr REAL conical is very light for that twist unless you use a very reduced load.

I shoot almost nothing but 300gr-325gr .458s in mine with MMP Orange sabots but i don't use "book" powders. Slower powders like Re7 or N120 and 300gr jacketed bullets are quite often the best performers in the Savage.

My other Savage is a Pacnor 45cal conversion and accuracy is amazing. I haven't seen an unhappy person yet who has converted one to 45cal. MOA or better at 200 yards is the norm with several smokeless powders and 40cal 195gr-200gr bullets in Harvester 45x40 smooth blue sabots.

Granted, you shouldn't have to replace the barrel for reasonable accuracy but its a very effective option if you plan on keeping it. If yours is a stainless model MLII, you wont have any problems selling it either. The SS versions sell very fast since they have been discontinued for awhile now and Savage has no plans to make more in SS.

 

[Dwayne]

Hello GM54,

Sorry for the long delay. . .'

http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustom ... isSearch=y

This is basically what I am shooting. . .With some high pressure sabots.

 

[ktmkevin]

I had been having the same horrid accuracy problems with my Savage as noted by others on this thread. All the powder/bullet/sabot recommendations from the "experts" were getting me nowhere. The "go to" stuff (250-300 grain hornady/barnes/mmp sabots/5744/etc.) was yielding unacceptable 6-9 inch groups at 100 yards. My advice would be to keep hacking away with different bullets/sabots/powders as time and budget permit. Don't worry about the "expert" opinion on your combinations. I finally got my gun to shoot 2 1/4 inch groups with Precision Rifle Dead Center 260 grainers with the supplied sabot (mmp according to Cecil Epp) and 59 grains of Reloder 7; not a load that I've ever seen recommended anywhere. (Interestingly, this exact same bullet was shooting very poorly with 41 grains of 5744). That accuracy isn't startlingly good but acceptable to kill deer. There still may be a little more to be had as I fool with different powder weights. Pillar bedding and other tricks may help to get that last little bit of precision but it sounds to me like some Savage owners (like myself) need to "get it on the paper" first.

 

[GM54-120]

ktmkevin

What FPS are you getting with 59gr of Re7 and a 260gr?
What is the extreme spread and standard deviation?

Have you tried this load over a chrono at the max and min temps expected during your hunting season, if not you may be in for a surprise. That load will not likely make a consistent pressure curve which smokeless requires for reliability. I would hate to trust that load when the temps drop and a nice buck is in my sights. Re7 does have some nitro added but that load will likely make less than 25kpsi under ideal conditions.

Good luck

 

[GM54-120]

It has nothing to do with expert advice unless you consider a machine an expert. Simply put, if you dont make enough psi per fps. The load will not be reliable under all conditions. All the accuracy in the world from a range session will not change that fact. There is a reason people recommend load data. Mine is not based on opinion. Its based on hard data i can prove and then verify under field conditions.

None of these loads even make as much PSI as a current Savage recommended book powder load.

 

[wolfer]

Sewww many ML shooters don't know how to get a Savage MLII to shoot. 1st. HEAT is the enemy of sabots and smokeless makes a LOT OF HEAT, you have to shoot a "cold" barrel. Perhaps if ambient temps are below 60 you can shoot 2 shots but then YOU MUST wait to let the barrel cool or use a barrel cooler. My savages will shoot moa or better with factory barrels if shooting a cold barrel. With out a barrel cooler wait time is 12 to 15 minutes between shots with temps in 60-70 DF. this was a difficult thing for me to learn as with BP and subs this isn't a problem. Smokeless generates so much more pressure that sabots WILL FAIL if the barrel is too hot. I suspect that is the reason many people have problems and give up on the Savage. I've bought quite a few at cheap price that "couldn't hit a barn from the inside" and the only problem was operator ignorance and error. Yes, getting them from the 2.5" group to under 1 inch takes tweaking but is doable with a little effort. For some insight into how to tweak a Savage MLII go over to "Dougs Message board" and lurk about. W

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/