Ignition system tests.

[Reese]

A few months ago, while I was waiting for a local source of Blackhorn 209, I decided to do
some ignition testing on an MK-85. Early reports were that #11 ignition systems were not
potent enough to ignite Blackhorn 209. I decided to see for myself so I tried to put together
the best #11 ignition system I could, in preperation for shooting Blackhorn 209.

Below are the results of a test I did with an MK-85 firing off various #11 caps and musket
caps in to cleaning patches. I also tried to measure the relative force of the cap and nipple
combinations.

I placed the MK-85 in an MTM Gun Maintenance Center as horizonatal as I could.
I placed several inches of masking tape on my range rod/cleaning rod and marked
a starting point flush with the muzzle. I then placed a patch on the rod and
seated it against the breech plug. I fired three of each cap I tested. I
wanted to see how much of a burn mark each cap and each nipple combo would
create as well as what the effects were on the caps and how far it would push
out the rod. I eyeballed the distance the rod moved from the muzzle with a
steel ruler that had marks down to 1/100th of an inch.

I wasn't trying to be overly scientific but the results were interesting. I
doubt I got the same fold on each patch as it went in to the barrel, therefore
the patch resistance may not have been identical on each test.

I started with Knight's Red Hot #11 nipple.

Here are the measurements of the distance the ram rod moved in the barrel.

CCI #11 - .04, .11, .10
CCI #11 Mag - .25, .28, .22
Rem #11 - .42, .51, .41
DN #11 (1075+) - .10, .20, .15

Next I used Knight's Red Hot Musket cap nipple.

DN #2 Musket - .22, .40, .35

Here is a picture of the burnt patches using the Red Hat nipples.

I cleaned the bore with one patch with Hoppe's #9 and then
ran two dry patches.

Next I used Thompson Center's Flame Thrower #11 nipple.

Here are the measurements of the distance the ram rod moved in the barrel.

CCI #11 - .43, .46, .41
CCI #11 Mag - 1.19, .23, .53
Rem #11 - .42, .53, .50
DN #11 (1075+) - 1.37, .26, .45

Next I used TC's Flame Thrower Musket nipple.

DN #2 Musket - 1.20, .48, .83

Here is a picture of the burnt patches using the Flame Thrower nipples.

One thing I noticed is that the #11 caps used on the Red Hot nipple
blew apart more than the #11 caps used on the Flame Thrower nipple.
To me, it seems that there is more backpressure with the Red Hot
nipples with their one hole versus the Flame Throwers three holes.


Note: DN is Dynamit Nobel and the Rem #11 were the "40% hotter"
ones.

Although several patches had a few less fibers in the burn area,
none of them burned a nice hole in the patch.

When I did obtain some Blackhorn 209, I could not get this rifle to ignite
without considerable hang fire. I recommend following the manufacturers
warnings on the bottle. This powder is best ignited with full strength 209
shotgun primers.

I have two other patches of interest. The left patch is from snapping a cap
on an NEF Huntsman with the .25 ACP breech plug using a CCI small rifle primer.
This rifle will shoot BlackHorn 209 with a slight delay. The delay is slight
but long enough that you can hear the hammer strike the firing pin. The
factory 209 carriers worked with Blackhorn 209. Unfortunately, I did not
take a picture of that burnt patch.

The right patch is from snapping a cap on a .45 cal Wolverine 209 with a
Winchester 209 primer in a Red FPJ. This rifle shoots Blackhorn 209 really
well.

I realize that I could install a 209 conversion in the MK-85 and that should
make it work like the Wolverine but I am satisfied with how well the MK-85
shoots Triple Seven with #11 caps.

 

[wayles]

Report

Reese.....Interesting Report, Good info to know, Just noticed it
Wayles

 

[cayuga]

Your findings are very interesting since 80% of my shooting is done with #11 caps. I normally shoot RWS, CCI Magnum or the Remington 40% hotter caps. The RWS are a favorite, but a couple rifles I have really are tight with the RWS and so a Remington cap is used on them.

 

[Underclocked]

Excellent test and report. Looks like the Remingtons might offer a good flame with the most consistent results.

 

[big6x6]

Thanks for the report! Very good and pictures ALWAYS are a big plus!

 

[Busta]

Thanks Reese, excellent report. Try some CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum Primers in the .25 ACP, great ignition with BH209 using saboted bullets but still lacking a bit for the conicals.

 

[Swampman]

I have about 800 Remington #11 caps that I bought for 25 cents a tin. Glad to see this test. I've mostly used CCIs in the past.

 

[Underclocked]

Busta, have you tried any knurled conicals?

 

[Busta]

Busta, have you tried any knurled conicals?

No, but I have tried some knarley ones. :lol:

 

[iowaforge]

Reese, are the Huntsman/Sidekick primer carriers and Blackhorn working well for you ?

 

[Reese]

Thanks guys for the kind words.

Reese, are the Huntsman/Sidekick primer carriers and Blackhorn working well for you ?

The stock orange 209 primer holders worked well for me on the five shots I took on the 80+ degree F day that I tested them. I was using Winchester 209 shot shell primers. I used Blackhorn 209 in this gun only as a test. My Huntsman is a spare rifle that does not see much use and I still have several pounds of T7 to use up. As Busta recommended, I will some day try the CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum Primers in the .25 ACP when I can find the 450's locally.

I heard that the Winchester 777 209 primers would not work well, so I just had to try it for myself. What I heard was correct. I had a nasty delay with the Win 777 primers.

 

[Busta]

In my testing of the NEF primer carriers, I could get acceptable ignition on a NEW primer carrier with saboted bullets, but after a few shots the plastic washes out and you lose what little seal there was and get slight delays to hang fires. I would say they are unreliable at best.

I should probably go dig up my old posts, because I am relying on my horrible memory. :?

 

[Busta]

For iowaforge. I know I have another test some where in the archives, but here is one with both 25 ACP and the primer carriers.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... ght=#71435