Knight Elite .45 Day long range expectations

[cljohnson24]

Guy's I've worked up some loads with my Knight Elite .45 and have come to the conclusion that it likes 120gr BH209(115&125gr also nice) under 200SST(also tried XTP's with same results) in HSB sabot with W209 primers. This gives me very consistent 100 yard groups right at 1.35" all day long. At 200 yards I get VERY consistent 2.7-2.8" groups with no wind on 3 different range sessions.
I've tried knurling up to .401/.4025/.405 and the result was right at 1.55-1.7"@ 100 yds and 3.5"@200yds.
Tan MMP's opened groups to 3"@100yds...
FWIW, Scope is solid, stock is free floated and torqued to 35in# like my others. I have the Lehigh bare 209 BP.Trigger is @2#
Groups are perfectly circular with no vert/horiz stringing.First foul shot goes 1/4" high with a 20fps jump in velocity, the following shots of each group are right at 2375-2380fps(55deg)with only 5fps dev. so I know the load is "dialed in "...
I have a couple other .50's that have been sorted for years and I'm shooting them consistently sub MOA on the same days with more recoil and less BC so I don't think it's me or the wind...

What kind of groups do the rest of you guys see @ 200yds with Knight .45's and SST's??
I feel there is something I can tweak to get sub MOA but I'm just not finding it... Maybe need the crown touched up? I don't know.
ANY ideas would be appreciated as I'm scratching my head.

 

[Widude]

I'll admit, I'm more a hunter than a long range precision shooter. The repeatable groups you mention would put many center-fire shooters at the range to shame. I'm talking about those out to dial in for the deer hunt.

I'd think all your low hanging fruit has been picked. You're well setup for hunting at most any reasonable range. I have hung lots of deer on the pole with SST bullets, but I have been trying others the last few years. I plan the 200 grain .400" XTP this Fall.

 

[cljohnson24]

The .40 XTP200 is one fine bullet and USUALLY shoots better for me than SST200's, but in this gun it shoots the same, and the benefits of SST's BC make it worth the price diff not because of trajectory, but because of a MUCH better wind drift(which is a big factor in January in NE Ohio).

 

[WV Hunter]

The last two times I shot my .45 Elite, it was right at MOA or sub MOA w 3 shots. I was shooting shockwaves (same bullet) with green factory sabots (which are same as tan) and 100gr BH209, W209 primers. I have not had a chance to shoot it at 200, but at 150 it was 1 3/8" with that load.

Have you tried going down on your load? I know most folks say heavier loads work better, but I've been quite happy with 100gr in mine. Regardless, yours is shooting well... though you may be able to improve on it a smidge. I've been very happy with mine, but honestly I'm a hunter mostly and what yours is doing would be perfectly fine with me.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

this post talks about a poor crown on a disc elite
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13070&p=104174&hilit=crown+work+on+knight+disc+elite#p104174

Ever tried JB bore paste? I use it on all my muzzleloaders and I think it helps accuracy. Maybe also try something that will dissolve plastic residue, maybe some has built up but is not visible to the eye.

My .45 Disc Elite shoots best with your exact same load, 100yds

 

[cljohnson24]

I use JB on every gun I get before I even fire it. On guns with sabots, I let them soak in MC-7 and use wire bore brush to ensure the bore is plastic foul free. The crown looks nick free to me, but I'm not an expert either.

Lowest load I've tried is 110gr and it printed a 1.55" group. Highest I've tried was 130gr@ 2510fps and groups opened up to almost 2.75"@100yds. 115,120,and 125gr all are in the 1.35-1.45" range with 120gr being the best of the 3 loads. This is based upon 2 different range sessions with a minimum of 1-2 groups per load each time not best of each, these groups are consistent with each other so I believe I have the right load.

I'd be OK with 1.35" groups and 2.7"@ 200yds IF I wasn't aware of other's reporting MOA or less with this specific model and the load I'm also using.

Perhaps I need to try a different primer(maybe fed209a) or powder(Triple 7)?? This in effect IS my long range gun I replaced my Savage 10ML2 with(1.75"@200yds BUT Heavy and hated Accutrigger) so I need to get it into the MOA category to justify this move mentally as a win.
I have to Handi Rifle Conversions that do 1.5" groups@100yds and 3"@200 all day off bags. I would like to get this baby dialed in with this bullet to stretch my range to 250-300yds...

 

[sabotloader]

cljohnson24

The Elites are normally great shooters... One of the things I would check is the stock to barrel fit of the rifle. The Elite has what is called a 'forked' recoil lug and is suppose to hold the receiver solid in the stock (no rocking) and at the same time float the barrel. What I have found in many cases is the stock touches the barrel unevenly causing the barrel harmonics to change form one shot to another.

I did this write several years ago in response to a question like yours that was asked...

One of the first things is check if you can slide a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock from the muzzle area back to near the receiver or where you run into the recoil lug on the rifle. If it slides all the way back then move on to the writing below.

Checking the Fit of Knight stock


Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....

I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...

Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.

I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.

In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.

When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.

If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.

During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!

Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....

mike

I am headed out to do some trap shooting this morning I will check back in this afternoon to see if you have any questions.... try to find a round dowel approximately the same diameter as the wall on the barrel channel...

 

[cljohnson24]

Sabotloader, I believe I've found the problem after reading your post! I knew my stock was free floated everywhere(as I've checked it when I first got it used from another member on here). I recalled having a problem with ramrod being loose and thought gap on forend was larger than normal and maybe the ramrod spring was weak. (This should've been the clue) WellI tried to bend the ramrod spring out and it broke a week later(another member on here helped me with a spare, why I love this place!)...Anyways a little while ago I read Sabotloader's post and squeezed the stock and noticed it wasn't binding whatsoever...actually it would move laterally about a 1/16" if I went side to side with it and about 3/8". I was hesitant to remove the stock to lose my zero...but I did and began looking for contact points. What I noticed is that it had been sanded/fitted already at one time along the barrel channel and in the action area.
THIS explains WHY...now I need to figure out which route to go if I want to fix it.
Can I bed this stock? If so, is there anything special I need to do? What compound is best for synthetic stocks? If this isn't a "sound" option, should I just buy another stock? I have a fitted limbsaver I can transfer to another Knight stock IF I get the same type.
Any advice?

 

[cljohnson24]

Should I use Devcon or Acra-glas on these synthetic stocks?
I plan to bed from the recoil lug back and retain the free-floating nature of the Elite's cantilever lug.
Anyone done one of these specific models? All advice welcome as this will be my first bed job.

 

[cljohnson24]

Decided to let my gunsmith do it. I called him and he was very familiar with the "elite" and it's cantilever lugl. He said he beds synthetic stocks with Acraglas gel and on the "elites" only did the recoil lug pocket(except inside of cantilever for ramrod) and action area. He will leave verything forward of the recoil lug pocket forward wall alone so it would retain the free float of the barrel. I wholeheartedly trust his opinion and work as he has done some really awesome work on centerfire rifles for me in the past.
I'll let everyone know how it shoots when I get it back next week or so..

 

[cljohnson24]

Gunsmith finished bedding my Knight Elite .45 Saturday, and I got a chance to shoot it today with nice 3mph rear wind and 52 degrees.
He used acra-glass and bedded the recoil lug pocket and rearward to leave the barrel free floated.
Shot with my best load of 200SST/HSB Sabot & W209 primer over 120gr BH209. This load has consistently yielded 1.35"@100yds and 2.75"@200yds..
Until today.
1st 3 shots out of rifle were the .31" group (no foul shot)...

I then corrected 3 clicks left and 3 upward and took target to 200 yds. Shot group labeled "1" for and excluding my called shot(#2) was a 1.1"@200 group. So I ran Bore Snake down barrel once, made my correction to get me 2.5-3" low and decided to focus on shooting a solid group with good breathing/trigger control. This equaled 1.1" group which I'm ecstatic with and this puts this one on par with my best centerfire rifles.

This bedding job brought my groups down from 2.75"@ 200yds to 1.1"@200yds which is better than half, only cost me $75 and gave me results well beyond my expectations

 

[WV Hunter]

Wow, great shooting! Gotta love that!
I guess SL was right

 

[cljohnson24]

Wow, great shooting! Gotta love that!
I guess SL was right

Most definitely!
Thanks to everyone(especially sabotloader) for getting me pointed in the right direction. If it weren't for his advice, I'd still be looking for the cause.

 

[SCHUNTER]

Excellent shooting! Glad it worked out for you...

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Very nice! :yeah:

 

[LarryBud]

Can't argue with those results. Nice shooting.

I'd be interested in seeing 100 grains of BH 209. I shoot this our of my bedded 45 Elite with similar results. Not as good but similar. Could be my aiming.

If figure why burn the extra powder and take the extra abuse.

 

[cljohnson24]

110 and 125 shot right at 2 Moa and 115/120 were tied at 1.35 Moa in my rifle. I would think it safe to assume the best load for my rifle would still be the best load following a bedding job.


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