Laying down the ol'e slug gun...

[GM54-120]

The LRM-500 is interesting and more of a true custom. Pretty expensive even for a custom though.
http://www.gunwerks.com/Long-Range-Univ ... ion-Series

Info about the action

Similar to a Rem 40X
Action machined from a single 416R billet hardened to 41 Rockwell
Rear lug bolt including handle machined from a single piece of 4140
Large 8-40 scope mount screws
Weight, dimensions ect.

 

[Omega45]

Gunwerks has no problem shooting BH209 out of that smokeless gun

 

[Dutch]

I have to say that this thread is really getting my juices flowing. My favorite of the models discused here is the NULA. I have a little jingle in my pocket since The Lovely and Talented One went back to work full time. I am planning to give Mr. Forbes a call tomorrow. I have a lot of questions for him. But I think I may finally take the plunge.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Gunwerks has no problem shooting BH209 out of that smokeless gun

There's a limited amount of shooters that have shot or shoot BH from the Ultimate also. From what I read, once you get to or beyond 140grs V BH starts affecting accuracy in any custom. Why I have no clue. Just information I got from both Luke and Bill. Seems to me that I heard Gunwerks and Ultimate communicate or have in the past......

 

[Squeeze]

I was thinking that Gunworks video was with real black, he mentioned the smokecloud, but Im not sure. I guess theres a few old blackpowder long range guns that have claimed 1000 yard accuracy for a long time, I cant see where any of these modern style shouldnt do the same. Is it just in a heavier barrel? Or longer?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Gunwerks starting base price is $5,500.00 for their muzz. http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/muzzleLoader

 

[Squeeze]

got a reply from swing lock. Seems they are right in that ballpark. Still my favorite.

I have never developed specific data for use of BH209 in Swing-Lock
rifles but the same data as specified for use in other more typical
commercial non-custom rifles can be used in Swing-Lock rifles of the
same caliber. Performance would then be the same as for standard
commercial rifles.

Just for the info, a least expensive Swing-Lock rifle capable of using
BH209 as well as smokeless powder is just under $5000. Present delivery
is at least 24 months.

I am happy to provide a quote if you are still interested.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Tom Post
Swing-Lock Custom Muzzleloading, Inc.

 

[GM54-120]

Gunwerks are too expensive for me but i can understand why they charge a premium. I still think its high though. Its a custom built action with benchrest quality barrel. Assuming they are using the same barrel companies they use for their centerfires, Hart, Benchmark, Shilen, Bartlien ect ect. I had to dig a tiny bit for that info. AND Jewel triggers. The Titanium action LRM-500 would be sweet.

Ive shot some 91gr by weight BH209 loads (about 130ish+ by volume) in the Pacnor 45 and Knight 52 with encouraging results. I tried 140gr by volume a few times too in the 45 and it didnt seem to shoot as well but needs more testing. Im sure the powder column is getting really long.

I saw that the other day too. It took two year for the guy to get his Swinglock but boy was he happy

 

[Aqua12345]

Tom Post also responded back to me with the same information that Squeeze shared, base model starting just under $5000 and a two year waiting period. Tom did however mention going down the path of getting away from a .50 and go to .45 using sabotless bullets stating that it was an even better recommendation for performance. Not to change the topic of this thread from what is now turned into custom build recommendations which I find fascinating, I originally figured on purchasing a .50 ca. so please help me out on the .50 or .45 caliber usage for what my intention is basically deer season use in Illinois.

Some of my questions would be:
Ability to use in other states? Avaliability of ammo and supplies? Quick thoughts please. Don’t want to get this thread off topic.

 

[ENCORE50A]

........ I originally figured on purchasing a .50 ca. so please help me out on the .50 or .45 caliber usage for what my intention is basically deer season use in Illinois.
Some of my questions would be:
Ability to use in other states? Avaliability of ammo and supplies? Quick thoughts please. Don’t want to get this thread off topic.

I'm no expert on Ill. hunting but the law reads as follows:

Deer Hunting


Legal Firearms
##Shotguns, loaded with slugs only, of not larger than 10 gauge nor smaller than 20 gauge, not capable of firing more than 3 consecutive slugs; or
##Single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .45 caliber shooting a single projectile through a barrel of at least sixteen inches in length; or
##Centerfire revolvers or centerfire single-shot handguns of .30 caliber or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches.


Legal Ammunition
##For shotguns and muzzleloading firearms, the minimum size of the projectile shall be .44 caliber. A wad or sleeve is not considered a projectile or a part of the projectile.
##For handguns, a bottleneck centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding 1.4 inches, or a straight-walled centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger, both of which must be available as a factory load with the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer showing a capability of at least 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Note: There is no case length limit for straight-walled cartridges.
##Non-expanding military style full metal jacket bullets cannot be used to harvest white-tailed deer; only soft point or expanding bullets (including copper / copper-alloy rounds designed for hunting) are legal ammunition.


Additional Muzzleloading Restrictions
##A muzzleloading firearm is defined as a firearm that is incapable of being loaded from the breech end.
##Only black powder or a "black powder substitute" such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders are an approved blackpowder substitute only in muzzleloading firearms that are specifically designed for their use.
##Percussion caps (shotgun primers are legal), wheellock, matchlock or flint type ignition only may be used, except the Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA) electronic ignition shall be legal to use.

It indicates that smokeless is legal in Ill. IF the rifle is so designed. In that case, a smokeless or BP substitute designed rifle would work for you in .45 ... BUT... the bullet itself MUST be .44 cal. or larger. Now I'm not an expert but, it the requirement is that the bullet/projectile must be .44 or larger, then it appears that to be legal you would be required to knurl .45cal bullets to be legal. On other sites concerning Ill muzzleloading, shooters clearly state that the projectile, according to definition, must be .44 or larger. Unless you want to knurl bullets and possibly use wads, it appears that a .50 would be your better choice, with many more choices of projectiles.

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/hunting/Pag ... ition.aspx

 

[GM54-120]

50cal=boring.

Fast twist 45cal=
10mm bullets in 45/40 sabots
Higher sectional density conicals (unless you like shooting 600gr+ 50s)
Able to shoot nearly any correctly sized .450-.458 bullet sabotless (warm barrel has less negative effect on accuracy plus its cheaper)
Slightly higher fps than a 50cal with similar bullet weights and charges.

Now, to achieve all this a faster twist than 1-28 is recommended. Thats no problem because the choice on twists are pretty large and well proven performers. Most 45/70 barrels run from 1-22 to 1-18 twist. Those barrels also have the correct Land to Groove specs to accommodate sabots. A adjustable die from Swinglock also makes the sabotless part much easier. Depends on the barrel too. Many McGowen barrels just need a slight knurl on the .451 bullet or work right out of the package. 458s do require a full form sizing die or resizing down in two steps.

My 45cal is tight. Its .450, so i need to size down to .4495 with a .449 Lee die. Bullets spring back a little and not all brands spring back the same. Ive even had bullets spring back more after setting for a month. Its worked out to a near perfect fit too.

Now, you dont need a fast twist custom to shoot most common 10mm/40cals in sabots. A 1-28 to 1-30 shoots a 175gr-195gr Barnes or 200gr SST/XTP extremely well. They also shoot many 180gr 10mm bullets fantastic for range fun. You can also shoot conicals upto atleast 360gr. Mine shot a 360gr with excellent accuracy. I know people shooting upto a 405gr in a 1-30 twist but ive never tried it.

Both MMP and Harvester make/sell the sabots. I dont see them as often at gunshops or big chain stores but they are easily available online from many places. I buy in bulk so its never a problem.

 

[ENCORE50A]

In Ill he wouldn't have a choice but to re-size bullets, as 10mm wouldn't be legal.

 

[GM54-120]

In Ill he wouldn't have a choice but to re-size bullets, as 10mm wouldn't be legal.

Why cant he use full bore conicals? A .451 440gr conical has a better BC and SD than a similar profile 50cal 440gr conical. It easily equals or beats a 45/70 in knockdown. (Excluding Ruger#1 load data)

He cant shoot sabots for fun either? I shoot far more for enjoyment and practice than i do hunting. That was the main goal for me in a non smoker. NO cleanup required after a range session. I clean my bore when i feel like it with no fear of corrosion. I can always hunt on a fouled bore and it never rusts due to fouling. It does not appear to exclude coyotes or other game.

Not all 45cal bores require any sizing. Ive seen a Mcgowen take a Parker from package to bore. Ive seen many that just needed a slight knurl.

 

[Aqua12345]

GM 54-120 wrote:

*** "barrels just need a slight knurl on the .451 bullet or work right out of the package. 458s do require a full form sizing die or resizing down in two steps.
My 45cal is tight. Its .450, so I need to size down to .4495 with a .449 Lee die. Bullets spring back a little and not all brands spring back the same. I’ve even had bullets spring back more after setting for a month. It’s worked out to a near perfect fit too." ***

So using a .45 during deer season here in Illinois is legal, by using a sabotless .45 in the barrel. Reading from your post there seems to be a lot of work to do to make up for the sabot when using a naked .45 bullet in the barrel. Time is precious and I truly don’t have the time or knowledge to be doing what you describe above. Why can’t I just pull one off the shelf and drop it down the barrel without all the reshaping work?

Is it due to varying tolerances in the barrel? Is a custom, double lapped, match barrel going to accept a .45 without any re-work? (You can tell from my prior descriptive words that this newbie is starting to grow in knowledge). Thank you all for sharing your wisdom.

 

[ENCORE50A]

GM 54-120 wrote:

*** "barrels just need a slight knurl on the .451 bullet or work right out of the package. 458s do require a full form sizing die or resizing down in two steps.
My 45cal is tight. Its .450, so I need to size down to .4495 with a .449 Lee die. Bullets spring back a little and not all brands spring back the same. I’ve even had bullets spring back more after setting for a month. It’s worked out to a near perfect fit too." ***

So using a .45 during deer season here in Illinois is legal, by using a sabotless .45 in the barrel. Reading from your post there seems to be a lot of work to do to make up for the sabot when using a naked .45 bullet in the barrel. Time is precious and I truly don’t have the time or knowledge to be doing what you describe above. Why can’t I just pull one off the shelf and drop it down the barrel without all the reshaping work?

Is it due to varying tolerances in the barrel? Is a custom, double lapped, match barrel going to accept a .45 without any re-work? (You can tell from my prior descriptive words that this newbie is starting to grow in knowledge). Thank you all for sharing your wisdom.

I don't believe you're ready to go into smokeless, or the work that it may require with the .45's. IF you got lucky and had a barrel that would accept a non-knurled bullet, you'd be all set... maybe. Then if you shoot smokeless, you may end up duplexing loads to get the rifle to consistently discharge in the coldest of weather. Its more work than just pulling one off the shelf and dropping it down the barrel. Its your decision on how much work you want.

For a hunter that wants to lay down his slug gun and take up muzzleloading, a beginner (no disrespect intended), you'd IMO be much better off going an easier route and learning. If you are not interested in the possibility of knurling bullets, using wads, duplexing powders etc, then your options start to lower with .45's and hunting in Ill. Thus to increase the options, the .50's give you an almost unlimited amount of options in both bullets and propellants. You mentioned that you didn't care for the break open designs and that leaves many good rifles out. If you want to stay away from break opens, then check out the Knight or maybe wait and see what Remington comes out with this fall in 50cal. Then of course, there is the Ultimate, a .50 that you drop 3 T7M pellets into, push a Fury, Parker, Barnes or SST down the barrel, off the shelf, and have the ability for top accuracy and long range.

 

[GM54-120]

Not all barrels are exactly the same size and not all .451 or .452 bullets are exactly the same size. Even Rems .458 is not .458, its a .457ish. That goes for a 50cal or a 45cal.

You need to experiment with different sabots to get the correct fit in nearly all MLs. Sabots even vary in size as the molds age/wear.

Why have two variables when you can reduce it to one with a die made to fit your bore or an adjustable die? My sized bullets load easier than sabots. I will never "blow" a sabot. I never have to wait for the barrel to cool (within reason). You said time was important. Sabots fail all the time in a hot barrel. Wait time of over 15min are common on hot days with sabots. I get more fps from a sabotless 45cal load vs a similar sabotted load in a 50cal.

Busta's BH209 sabotless 45cal data is very enlightening. Its into the common Savage 50cal "book powder" speeds. Pressure traces have confirmed those type of loads with BH209 are under 27kpsi. Swinglock didnt even break 26kpsi with a 350gr bullet and 84gr by weight at 2000fps. The 4 pellet load can easily break 50kpsi and what if a pellet is crushed? Pressure can go up even more.

These were taken in a barrel nearly identical to mine
Sabotless

200gr and sabot

Its easy to see these are far from max psi for that barrel. Ive shot 91gr by weight several times with a nice boost in fps. Others with a similar build have shot even more with a 325gr FTX and did very well on a hunt in NM where smokeless is not allowed.

 

[GM54-120]

I dont need to duplex my SML. I never dulpex in my NULA and its never even had a hiccup. Ive yet to see any NULA owner complain of a fail to fire. Hankens Rifles plug design even ignites in extreme temps with a easy loading sabotless .451 185gr bullet and a LRMP. I can easily load my 45 to never missfire with the correct powder and a 209. I never heard of a Swinglock owner having an ignition issue. PA machine also makes a Savage type plug for better reliability with slower powders.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I dont need to duplex my SML. I never dulpex in my NULA and its never even had a hiccup. Ive yet to see any NULA owner complain of a fail to fire. Hankens Rifles plug design even ignites in extreme temps with a easy loading sabotless .451 185gr bullet and a LRMP. I can easily load my 45 to never missfire with the correct powder and a 209. I never heard of a Swinglock owner having an ignition issue. PA machine also makes a Savage type plug for better reliability with slower powders.

With all due respect, WE may be pushing a lot on to a shooter that's just getting started into muzzleloading and wanted opinions on the LHR Redemption. Although he may find the information interesting, it may also be way above his head (no disrespect intended to Aqua12345) and/or mine and/or many others. Its evident by Ill. law that he can use smokeless, which evidently he didn't care to shoot or would have asked the question in the smokeless forum. But because it has been brought up, he's learning that smokeless and in .45 isn't as easy as "off the shelf" and just dropping it down the barrel. There's work to it and "some" of those rifles (shooters) do require a duplex load in extreme weather. If he's looking for something to pick up off the shelf, be confident with and be accurate without a lot of workup, I still suggest he remain with the .50's. If he wants to spend $5,000 to $7,000 on a custom rifle to start, wait two years for it, hey, I'm all for it.

 

[GM54-120]

In all honesty, i wouldnt advise a novice to start with any custom that hits the pocket book hard. You dont even know if a ML is your cup of tea. I believe a SML is safe for a novice with a long history of reloading CFs but even a Savage can be pricey as a starter. Their factory barrels can be spotty too. Some people find they are actually better shooters with BH209.

I would recommend starting with a ML that is reliable with BH209

I would recommend getting the best you can afford even if it means used. Make sure to save enough for a quality scope and accessories.

I would recommend stainless, at least the barrel until you are very familiar with cleaning a ML properly. SS still rusts but it gives a tiny bit more time.

I would recommend a Knight if a bolt action is your preference. They offer all those requirements for a mid level price. A Rem700ML in good shape with Hunters 209 mod is also a great choice. Relatively cheap and aftermarket is HUGE. Nearly any upgrade for a Rem700 will fit a Rem700ML. Occasionally nice takeoff barrels are available from all the guys doing conversions too.

Either one has a good resale value and a good demand for them.

 

[Aqua12345]

I have accessibility to a Leupold VX 6, 3x18, boone and crockett to take on a on a trade without mounting parts. What would be your recommendations as far as a scope base and rings?

For what its worth, I had a very nice discussion with Melvin today....