Looking for information for some loads on a new .50 CVA Optima......

[ETipp]

Hey all.

Even though I own a Knight .50, I have shot it very little and do not know much about inline ML. I'm an old trad ML fella so things are different. Therefore, I am seeking advice on this one.

Last week I picked up a new .50 CVA Optima, 27" barrel with a thumb hole stock for my son. He lives out of state and he wanted me to pick one up for him and to work up an accurate round for it. I already installed the scope. I plan on delivering it to him around Christmas. So, that leaves me a little while to come up with a good recipe for it.

Here's what I have so far to try.

295 grain POWERBELT copper hollow points.

I have some 777 pellets, 50 grains that he gave me last year but they are old and I cannot attest to how they were stored. I have been looking for a new box but things like that are very limited in the nearest town.

209 Primers.

I also have an assortment of what looks to be 240 grain FXT with black sabots, as well as what looks to be 250 grain to 260 grain JHP of some sort. I will need to weigh some of those out to know what I have.

Another powder I have to try is Pyrodex RS.

Any information on this would be appreciated.

 

[deermanok]

A friend of mine uses those 295 grain Powerbelts with 100 grains volume of Blackhorn 209.
Mine own Optima seems to shoot best with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209 and the Hornady XTP 240 grain bullets.
Those pellets you have may or may not still be good if they are too old. But try them anyway.
I would say to try all the different bullets you have on hand to see which ones group up best.
For a powder charge, I would recommend starting at about 70 grains by volume, working up a bit at a time.
Somewhere in the 70 to 100 grains or so, you should find a good load.

 

[Rvrrat14]

You’ll hear all kinda issues with Powerbelts.
You’ll hear how you need 209 powder and sabots/pistol bullets.

I bought a new Optima V2 last summer. Wanted a simple rifle that would extend my hunting season. I wanted to try the pellets and wanted to shoot a 50 cal bullet, that’s what I bought, a 50 caliber.

Now, there’s a lot of merit to fine tuning any firearm with the proper powder charge and projectile. If you or he has the time and desire, by all means. I may dabble with some BH 209 powder and other bullets sometime. But to get me through this season, White Hots and Hornady Bore Driver FTX bullets.

I have friends that have killed deer with Powerbelts, but some of the much more experienced folks here have stated they are not consistent. I’m not doubting that. I heeded their warnings, but came across another new bullet.

The Bore Driver bullets shoot 1 1/2” at 100 yards with 2 White Hot pellets, and I have killed a few hogs this past year. I am pleased. I plan to shoot a deer this ML season. Pellets are simple to load/unload with this rifle. Preloading speed loaders are simple to load and use in the field.

I’m getting about 3-4 shots before having to swab the barrel in the field. I have unloaded the Bore Driver without shooting, reloaded, and it fired fine.

My opinion is like everyone else’s. I have learned a ton about ML-ing here and there are some smart folks here! Read and have him read here and y’all will learn a lot, as I did. Pick your poison and give it a try.

ML (muzzle loading) is a BLAST!

Best luck!

 

[ETipp]

You’ll hear all kinda issues with Powerbelts.
You’ll hear how you need 209 powder and sabots/pistol bullets.

I bought a new Optima V2 last summer. Wanted a simple rifle that would extend my hunting season. I wanted to try the pellets and wanted to shoot a 50 cal bullet, that’s what I bought, a 50 caliber.

Now, there’s a lot of merit to fine tuning any firearm with the proper powder charge and projectile. If you or he has the time and desire, by all means. I may dabble with some BH 209 powder and other bullets sometime. But to get me through this season, White Hots and Hornady Bore Driver FTX bullets.

I have friends that have killed deer with Powerbelts, but some of the much more experienced folks here have stated they are not consistent. I’m not doubting that. I heeded their warnings, but came across another new bullet.

The Bore Driver bullets shoot 1 1/2” at 100 yards with 2 White Hot pellets, and I have killed a few hogs this past year. I am pleased. I plan to shoot a deer this ML season. Pellets are simple to load/unload with this rifle. Preloading speed loaders are simple to load and use in the field.

I’m getting about 3-4 shots before having to swab the barrel in the field. I have unloaded the Bore Driver without shooting, reloaded, and it fired fine.

My opinion is like everyone else’s. I have learned a ton about ML-ing here and there are some smart folks here! Read and have him read here and y’all will learn a lot, as I did. Pick your poison and give it a try.

ML (muzzle loading) is a BLAST!

Best luck!

Thanks for the reply. I agree that every rifle likes it own recipe.

Personally, I have no problem with weighing each of my own powder charges. I carry those speed loaders which has served me well over the years. However, my son doesn't do the powder weighing thing and wants to stick with the pellets, so we shall see I reckon. I think he is receptive to speed loaders if it means best accuracy. Pretty sure he can afford a smaller simple scale.

I'm hoping the Powerbelts will hit well enough to satisfy him. If not, then I reckon we will keep experimenting. I certainly like to get opinions on what others have tried and/or like out of their like rifles. Dang good starting point for sure. I have heard good about those Bore Driver bullets from others as well.

 

[vaguru]

Try 80-90 gr by volume of the T7 (we use 3F) with a saboted 240 gr .430 Hornady XTP. We have 2 of these rifles, my son and I. His prefers the 80 gr load and mine the 90 gr. Velocities respectively, 1947 fps and 2066 fps, both shoot under an inch at 100 yds off a bench with 9X scope.
Good luck with your search.

 

[ETipp]

Try 80-90 gr by volume of the T7 (we use 3F) with a saboted 240 gr .430 Hornady XTP. We have 2 of these rifles, my son and I. His prefers the 80 gr load and mine the 90 gr. Velocities respectively, 1947 fps and 2066 fps, both shoot under an inch at 100 yds off a bench with 9X scope.
Good luck with your search.

Great information. Pretty sure I happen to have most of those on hand. Just need the weather to get out there and try them.

 

[Clairebear]

I use 85 weighed grns of Triple seven powder with a 240 grn XTP in the .429 with a green sabot and 209 primers. Never an issue and always a deer. Tried the 777 pellets on the range and the crud ring was much worse than the powder.

 

[10gaugemag]

The one thing that keeps popping up when I read inconsistencies about Powerbelts is those who stay around 80 grains or less don't seem to have as many issues. Go to pushing them hard and the rodeo begins.

Don't forget they are a lead bullet, not jacketed so they are very soft.

As far as pellets you can get 30 rain pellets I believe. These in conjunction with 50s to make 80 grains or 3 of the 30 grain pellets for 90.

 

[Clairebear]

I bought a box of 30's and tried 60, 80, and 90 grains multiple times and still had the nasty crud ring. Someone told me that the base that they use to compress and hold together the pellet is sucrose or sugar based and that is the reason for the crud ring. Just what I was told and did no research but rather switched to powder.

 

[ETipp]

Okay fellas. Yesterday was the first range day for the .50 Optima V2 that I am setting up and working up a load for my son. Here was the results thus far and what I found. All shots were from 25 yards as I had a used scope that was not sighted in. Condition of the scope unknown but it has some fairly heavy scratched marks on it. Cleaned the bore between each shot.

Began with (2) Triple Seven pellets and 295 grain PowerBelts. Best I could do was about a 2.5" group. So that ain't gonna happen. Shots were at the 5:30 position and low.

I went straight to my toy box and pulled out some 240 grain XTP's with black sabots. I thought I would begin with 80 grains of loose 777. Less than a 1/2" group between 3 shots. So that one was showing some promise. The POI was about the same location as with the 295 PowerBelts.

Before I messed with the charge, and considering I now had some good groups, I decided to work on zeroing out the scope. Got that done and there is where I stopped.

Due to cleaning between each shot, waiting on other people at the range so it was safe to shoot and/or walk down to the target, and zeroing in a cheap scope that did not behave very well, it took me over 3 hours to get that far.

The good news is, that smokepole seems to like that recipe thus far. My intentions are to pick back up where I left off at from 50 yards today. May need to tinker with the charge a tad.

I also plan on trying the 295 grain PowerBelts again but with loose 777 and different charges as well just to see.

Now, with that said, I do have some concerns with that load even if I bump it up to 85-90 gains. There is not much information on the XTP 240 grain being pushed at about 1850 FPS out of a ML, in terms of a hunting bullet and the distance deer usually travel overall after being hit. As expected, what information I have found varies. However, many reports are deer will often run a fair distance after being hit with the XTP out of ML.

Where my son hunts is a narrow ridge that's only about as wide as the old logging road. On both sides it drops down very steep and a long ways to the bottom. He has told me that due to this, he really needs to drop a deer in its tracks. I advised him to neck shoot deer with his 7MM and it has worked well for him so far. But this is a different game with a ML.

Anyone have any real life reports on hit deer with the XTP 240 grain they would like to pass along?

 

[MrTom]

The first thing you need to internalize is that they are deer and regardless of what you hunt with, they can do some amazing things when they should be totally dead, regardless of how well sighted your gun is or how well the bullets are supposed to open up at whatever speed you're pushing them.

XTPs have probably taken more muzzleloader deer than any other bullet and at muzzleloader speeds they just flat out work. That 240 grain XTP is potent deer medicine, so is the 300 grain XTP pill. I've had deer drop right on the spot with 240, 250 and 300 grain XTPs, but I have also had deer run thirty or forty yards without a heart and/or lungs.... with exit holes close to the size golf balls. XTPs are designed to work, expand, at much slower velocities than what the average muzzleloader is going to move them. My theory on reports of XTPs not living up to expectations is that those report poor performance either had very poor hits or are not being totally up front with the circumstances of the shot, like shooting thru a maze of small twigs and branches.

I think you're on the right track with the range time and paying attention to what is happening with each change in a load you make. Taking notes is imperative while doing this. Once a load is found that works for you, keep up the range time at differing distances so you become intimately familiar with your gun. Also take time to shoot from positions other than from what you did to sight the gun. Shoot standing using an upright of some sort to simulate shooting with a tree as a rest. Shoot sitting. If the gun worked off the bench but you find yourself not doing too well from these other positions, you have some work to do. I would not hunt with a gun that you did not have absolute confidence in and most of the time its not the gun that is at fault.

I too hunt on a severe ridge. I have to walk a long time to get to the top of it where I have the stand. Both sides of the ridge, like your description, are radical. On one side, deer going down the ridge are headed right to the road.... no sweat. On the other side I can plan on some sweat equity in getting the deer out or at least to where a wheeler can be used to remove it. One thing for certain about hunting deer on that ridge is that about 50% of the time on very solid hits with XTP bullets I can expect to have to do some work. That's part of the hunt. The only assurance one will not have to haul a deer uphill, with any bullet or gun, is to hunt flat land, like in cow pastures and bean fields.

 

[GregK]

The only way you’re guaranteed to anchor a deer is to break both of his front shoulders. For that, I would recommend a tougher bullet than the XTP. Upgrading to the XTP 240 or 300 magnum a series would do the job & a Hornady monoflex or a Barnes bullet will definitely break the shoulders
That is in no way to say that the XTP is not a good bullet. It’s an exceptional bullet that does its job very well but if you need to anchor a deer in his place, I would be looking at a little different option.

Greg

 

[vaguru]

I can only think of 2 deer that didn't just collapse when shot with the 240 XTP from our Optimas, and one with my MK-85. One was 127 yds, quartering away and went maybe 40 yds, only one lung hit but lots of other vitals. Another was 90 yds, walking broadside, double lung went 30 yds. The most impressive one, shot at 5 yds with the MK-85, heart and double lung, went 50 yds. All ranges were verified via range finder.

Sometimes their will to live is just stronger than the ton of ft/lbs the load delivers. In my mind the only guaranteed drop in the tracks hit is brain or spine. I go for the boiler room, usually does the trick.

 

[MrTom]

The only way you’re guaranteed to anchor a deer is to break both of his front shoulders. For that, I would recommend a tougher bullet than the XTP.

I shot a buck about four years ago at about 18 yards with the Optima pistol with a 63 grain weighed charge of BH209, green sabot and a 240 grain plain-jane XTP. Not the magnum pill. The bullet turned both shoulders to pulp and that deer still went over 30 yards. so the "breaking both shoulders" idea doesn't always pan out.

The first doe I got this year was taken with a Barnes 225 grain XPB bullet with the same everything as what was used on the buck mentioned. Quartering shot at 35 yards took out one shoulder and a lung with the bullet then going thru the body diagonally and breaking the femur on the opposite side rear leg. She went 35 yards. The second doe taken was shot with a Barnes 250 grain XPB at about 25 yards. Both front legs just above the equivalent of our elbows were blown out along with the heart and lower lungs. The flat bones in the front legs had fractures in them clear to the top of the shoulders. This deer also ran about 35 yards before going down.

The gist of this thread is that a guy can be doing everything humanly possible to assure a good hit using the best of the best components and in the end its still a matter that deer are deer.... they're tougher than nails type of animals and the "breaking both shoulders" idea doesn't always pan out.

 

[10gaugemag]

I shot a buck about four years ago at about 18 yards with the Optima pistol with a 63 grain weighed charge of BH209, green sabot and a 240 grain plain-jane XTP. Not the magnum pill. The bullet turned both shoulders to pulp and that deer still went over 30 yards. so the "breaking both shoulders" idea doesn't always pan out.

The first doe I got this year was taken with a Barnes 225 grain XPB bullet with the same everything as what was used on the buck mentioned. Quartering shot at 35 yards took out one shoulder and a lung with the bullet then going thru the body diagonally and breaking the femur on the opposite side rear leg. She went 35 yards. The second doe taken was shot with a Barnes 250 grain XPB at about 25 yards. Both front legs just above the equivalent of our elbows were blown out along with the heart and lower lungs. The flat bones in the front legs had fractures in them clear to the top of the shoulders. This deer also ran about 35 yards before going down.

The gist of this thread is that a guy can be doing everything humanly possible to assure a good hit using the best of the best components and in the end its still a matter that deer are deer.... they're tougher than nails type of animals and the "breaking both shoulders" idea doesn't always pan out.

Not to argue at all but it depends on what is "broken" in the shoulders.

Broken scapula, they can travel. Break the humerus or humerus scapula joint and they can only plow dirt with their noses. The legs are unable to bear weight at that point.

Also, sounds like you process your own deer or at least inspect what happened while you are dressing. Some of these guys simply think because of where the bullet landed they know what it hit or what damage it did.

Many don't realize that shooting center of the shoulder hits no bone since there is essentially a V shape where those bones turn hard towards the front of the animal.

Right in the front or the bottom of that "V" is the bronchial plexus. Hit that and it's almost like a switch. I have really started liking a high forward shot. Clip front of scapula and possibly clip bottom of the spine. Even if you don't clip them there is enough shock to anchor the animal right there.

Everyone's mileage may vary.

 

[ThreePoint]

Here are loads from the BH 209 website
https://blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf

 

[ETipp]

Not to argue at all but it depends on what is "broken" in the shoulders.

Broken scapula, they can travel. Break the humerus or humerus scapula joint and they can only plow dirt with their noses. The legs are unable to bear weight at that point.

Also, sounds like you process your own deer or at least inspect what happened while you are dressing. Some of these guys simply think because of where the bullet landed they know what it hit or what damage it did.

Many don't realize that shooting center of the shoulder hits no bone since there is essentially a V shape where those bones turn hard towards the front of the animal.

Right in the front or the bottom of that "V" is the bronchial plexus. Hit that and it's almost like a switch. I have really started liking a high forward shot. Clip front of scapula and possibly clip bottom of the spine. Even if you don't clip them there is enough shock to anchor the animal right there.

Everyone's mileage may vary.

Actually the there's only three ways I have found to definitely put a deer down in its tracks. One being spine shot, which no one should try to do. The second being a neck shot, which is doable and effective. Doesn't have to be in the narrow part of the neck. It could be up in front of the shoulders. They drop on the spot. The third being a head shot.

 

[ETipp]

I can only think of 2 deer that didn't just collapse when shot with the 240 XTP from our Optimas, and one with my MK-85. One was 127 yds, quartering away and went maybe 40 yds, only one lung hit but lots of other vitals. Another was 90 yds, walking broadside, double lung went 30 yds. The most impressive one, shot at 5 yds with the MK-85, heart and double lung, went 50 yds. All ranges were verified via range finder.

Sometimes their will to live is just stronger than the ton of ft/lbs the load delivers. In my mind the only guaranteed drop in the tracks hit is brain or spine. I go for the boiler room, usually does the trick.

Years ago when inlines first came out I used a Knight .50 with a 240 grain bullet on a doe. She fell on the spot. It was only about 40 yards away.

 

[ETipp]

The first thing you need to internalize is that they are deer and regardless of what you hunt with, they can do some amazing things when they should be totally dead, regardless of how well sighted your gun is or how well the bullets are supposed to open up at whatever speed you're pushing them.

XTPs have probably taken more muzzleloader deer than any other bullet and at muzzleloader speeds they just flat out work. That 240 grain XTP is potent deer medicine, so is the 300 grain XTP pill. I've had deer drop right on the spot with 240, 250 and 300 grain XTPs, but I have also had deer run thirty or forty yards without a heart and/or lungs.... with exit holes close to the size golf balls. XTPs are designed to work, expand, at much slower velocities than what the average muzzleloader is going to move them. My theory on reports of XTPs not living up to expectations is that those report poor performance either had very poor hits or are not being totally up front with the circumstances of the shot, like shooting thru a maze of small twigs and branches.

I think you're on the right track with the range time and paying attention to what is happening with each change in a load you make. Taking notes is imperative while doing this. Once a load is found that works for you, keep up the range time at differing distances so you become intimately familiar with your gun. Also take time to shoot from positions other than from what you did to sight the gun. Shoot standing using an upright of some sort to simulate shooting with a tree as a rest. Shoot sitting. If the gun worked off the bench but you find yourself not doing too well from these other positions, you have some work to do. I would not hunt with a gun that you did not have absolute confidence in and most of the time its not the gun that is at fault.

I too hunt on a severe ridge. I have to walk a long time to get to the top of it where I have the stand. Both sides of the ridge, like your description, are radical. On one side, deer going down the ridge are headed right to the road.... no sweat. On the other side I can plan on some sweat equity in getting the deer out or at least to where a wheeler can be used to remove it. One thing for certain about hunting deer on that ridge is that about 50% of the time on very solid hits with XTP bullets I can expect to have to do some work. That's part of the hunt. The only assurance one will not have to haul a deer uphill, with any bullet or gun, is to hunt flat land, like in cow pastures and bean fields.

Thank you for the reply. I'm well acclimated to hunting and killing deer, elk and bears with different tools........arrows, rifles, pistols and ML. You are correct, they sometimes appear as if they can defy death. Lived in the mountains most of my life including out west. Not fun to try to pack a critter out for sure. Some places can be rough.

Ya know, I've read many reports and watched many a hunting videos of kills with different ML setups. The interesting aspect of that is, I am amazed at how far many of the animals go after being hit. Doesn't seem to matter if its with a round ball, sabot or bore size bullet. I've killed my fair share over the years with my old sidelock shooting my hard cast Maxi Balls and the farthest one ever went was maybe 20 yards. That includes elk. Those hard cast do not expand at all. Go figure!

Went back to the range today for a short time. I only shot 3 of the 240 grain XTP with 80 grains of 777 loose powder. This time from 100 yards. I did not get the accuracy I was looking for but I did not change the powder charge either as those were the last of them. The group was 3.25" measured. Not good enough for this ole boy.

Next and JFG I shot 3 more of the PowerBelt 395 grain hollow points. Only this time it was with 80 grains of loose 777. It provided a measured 4" group. That too, is not acceptable and again I did not shoot any more to vary the charge.

So indeed more testing to do.

Not sure on what bullet I will settle on for him but I do know that I want it to be a pass through as much as possible. Considering the steep terrain he is faced with, and considering all the research that has shown how far many deer go after being hit with various ML bullets, the least I can do for him is to try to find him a bullet that most likely will pass through for ease of tracking.

At this point I'm considering the Bore Driver 290 grain.

 

[MrTom]

This is my 57th year of deer hunting, 47 with a muzzleloader. I've seen some crazy stuff deer do when shot with what should have been an instant drop shot, so nothing amazes me anymore. I'm a firm believer in off-season shooting and lots of it just to stay in touch with yourself and your guns. Beyond that, deer will continue to do things that people just shake their heads at.