More questions..lol

[Makinsmoke]

I have a converted cva scout 45/70 with the HIS breech plug.
I asked earlier about using a wool wad .Shooting 250 grain fury, I started at 57 gr of h4198, worked my way to 60 gr. At 20 yards they were key holding, I started sizing where I could with little trouble seat the bullet, then tried larger till I could barely get it down the bore. no change. With a unlubed wool wad, and 60 gr , it shot great 1.5" at 100. I know the wad is sealing the gas, but is my bullet ingraving the rifling? Or is it ( punkin balling ) down the bore ? I couldn't find a bullet to check. Also if it's just skidding down the barrel, will it damage it over time ? I've been Muzzleloading ,shooting lead bullets, casting, reloading centerfire for close to 40 years. My first experience with smokeless muzzleloader and full bore jacketed bullets.
I did kill a pretty decent doe last Saturday with it, but my confidence in it is lacking

 

[GM54-120]

When you look at traces the 250s with 4198 dont peak real high or real fast. Ive seen lots of guys post they had no problem though with "reduced loads" and HIS so i cant say whats going on for sure. Maybe DIS instead of HIS might work better for you?

Have you tried other wads like veggie fiber or poly wad? The poly wads seal super tight and i think Fury sells them in smaller packs than Buffalo Arms.
https://www.furycustombullets.com/shop-2/sabots-wads-and-accessories/50-cal-poly-wads/

 

[blackpowder72]

Are you wanting tighter groups ? Both my Scouts shoot sub inch at 100 yards. I size bullets for both guns where it just takes a few pounds of pressure to get them down. I feel my guns shoot better with a looser bullet but not so loose they will move off the powder charge. Play with your powder charges in .5 gr increment. There are guys shooting up to 65 gr of 4198 with 275 gr bullets. My load in both my Scouts is 60 gr 4198 , wool wad , 275 gr bullet. One gun is HIS and one is DI .

 

[SW]

The quicker the initial pressure rise, the more consistently the bullet will obturate. DI is quicker than HIS and is easier to use in a break open than a bolt action. I use DI in my bolt rifles.
However, virtually the same can be obtained by using a duplex. 5-7 g of VV110 under 7-10 less grains of your standard load of H4198 is likely to be more accurate and less temperature sensitive.

Do not discount saboted shooting. If I had your rifle, I’d try a 228g Pittman AccuMax (402) sized to 398-399 in a HLBS with a 45 cal Maine wool wad. 5- 7g VV110 or 4759 or 5744 under 50g of 4198 . The recoil will be less, the trajectory will be much flatter, the accuracy should be sub-MOA. Though 60-65g 4198/bore sized 275g bullets is a very popular load, I think that it is much less efficient and is more scope and shoulder abusive than a good saboted load.
To me, the only drawback to shooting sabots is the wait time for cooling the barrel after the second shot. It takes 2 shots to warm the barrel enough to affect the sabot.

 

[SW]

Some jacketed bullets have some spring back. Pittmans do. Parker and Furys little to none. Pittmans - run thru 3x and at least once, the next day.
A very economical way to shoot 402 sized bullets in sabots is to get a Lee fixed sizing die in 399 ($28) , size the bullets, lightly knurl to help grip the sabot better.
I’m convinced that saboted shooting for hunting is under appreciated by many.

 

[bluedog]

Where can i get one of those Lee .399 sizing dies? Have looked and cannot find one! Lee web site indicates they are no longer making custom sizing dies and .399 is not a standard size listed. Or a .400? Would like a .449 also.

 

[SW]

Where can i get one of those Lee .399 sizing dies? Have looked and cannot find one! Lee web site indicates they are no longer making custom sizing dies and .399 is not a standard size listed. Or a .400? Would like a .449 also.

I think I actually called them. Many years ago. Or, maybe, looked it up on their website. Jim (Jims - board name) got me onto this. I, initially, ordered a 0.400” ; but it was too large. Ordered another in 0.399” and it was perfect.

After many 1,000s of shots thru 45 and 50 caliber , smokeless MLers, I’m convinced that 99%+ of hunters using these rifles for ranges of 0-300 yards would be better off with a sized 402g , high BC bullet in the 225-250g range, lightly knurled, wool wad in a HLBS. This is especially so in a breakopen. Why abuse the scope and shoulder when the 40 cal, lighter bullet still has excess energy?

Though bore sized shooting has an advantage over saboted shooting, many who are new to this game have incorrectly discounted the value of sabots in 45s and some even in 50s. FWIW, my 2 newer 40s are state of the art customs with no expense spared. Lifetime rifles. But, I have a full sized 45, Brux barrel, 20” twist, 26” long, 1.3” breech for 6”, MB, 15#. It’s well sub-MOA to virtually any range, certainly 400 yards+ with 300g AeroMaxes at 2900’/sec. Very flat shooting. What do I shoot in this rifle? 228g AccuMaxes , sized and knurled, HLBS, Maine 40 cal wool wad @ 3,000’/sec. It’s recoil is docile. Accuracy is sub-MOA.

Don’t sell saboted shooting short!

 

[bluedog]

I agree with your position on sabots and I am using them. Still would like a sizing die for sizing down the .402 and .401 bullets to .400 to better fit my barrel with HLB sabots. Want to sell your .400 die if u r not now using?

 

[Mnt monkey]

I will only hunt with 240-250 grain in a light blue sabot in all of the smokeless 45's I shoot,,even tho my guns will shoot a bore Rider Pittman,fury Parker etc,into a hole,,they will also shoot sabot loads in constant half to three-quarters, some better , I really look for a load that just will put the first two bullets touching each other loaded as quickly as possible not so concerned about that third shot on these guns,,,I shoot fury 240 open tip, and fury 250gr 402s,, the smokeless 450 -457 Wilson Remington model 700 that I hunt with we'll shoot these less than MOA out to 400 yards 300 is no problem as long as you got to rest. I know and I've learned what bore riders will do ,very satisfied with them ,I think there's a lot left to be learned about sabot shooting I know they've been around a long time. I have a 1 in 28 twist Brux on a Remington also it will shoot sr4759 and 452 bullets in a sabot consistently right at a half inch at 100 yds ,,out to 300 yds it's very accurate!

 

[SW]

I’m convinced that a good 40 cal is currently the optimal deer hunting MLer caliber. I’m additionally convinced that saboted 40 cal bullets in a 45 is next best for almost all deer hunters.

40 call Lee die. I use both: one for sizing some bullets for the 45 saboted and the other (399) for sizing other bullets for the 45 and for sizing bullets for the PN barrel.
‘So, sorry, it’s not for sale.

 

[jims]

I would agree that for many that do not want to get too involved and just want to shoot deer at reasonable ranges shooting with sabots works.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

All of you are right. And, folks been killing deer with smaller calibers (.30cal) for a LONG time. But making my own bore sized bullets is just one part of the fun of ML hunting. Making it more of a challenge has become necessary for me and my current hunting situation. I love the smackdown that a bigger lead coni puts on a deer.

 

[SW]

Michiganmuzzy,
I, too, enjoy precisely sizing bullets and obtaining a very high level of long range performance. I’ve been shooting smokeless for 23 years. 50 cal/sabots , then 45/sabots & simultaneously 40/bore sized (2001-2002) , 45 bore sized (2003, & 2019-2020), and since 2020, 40 (3 rifles) and 45 (saboted - 1 rifle). All the ( ) were start dates.

I hunt out to 300-400 yards with <200 yards for 90+ %. 2 of my 40s and my 45 are capable of heavy loads. Having no desire for heavy recoil that also is scope stressing, I try to shoot the flattest, accurate, efficient loads possible.

While in a 50/45 sabot, I understand the usage of 300g bullets for longer ranges, I’m convinced that 275g or greater weight bore sized in a lighter 45 (break open or nut gun) compromises trajectory along with needless excessive recoil. Saboted shooting with a lighter, higher BC bullet would be much more efficient. Even in my 18# (ready to hunt), 700ML Brux, MB, I shoot saboted 40 cal bullets (225-253g) at 2900-2950 with <MOA accuracy. So pleasant to shoot, so accurate, so easy on the scope, so deadly on deer.

Summary. If legal, 40 cal smokeless rifles offer the best of everything, IMO.
If not legal, 45 saboted needs to be tried before rejecting it. Bore sized shooting does obtain maximum accuracy regardless of caliber though. If recoil is not a negative, boresized in a 45 is still likely the most accurate long range setup.

My personal minimalist mentality shows through. I don’t want to push this on others. I just think that saboted shooting is not considered viable by a lot of shooters because of various reasons.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Michiganmuzzy,
I, too, enjoy precisely sizing bullets and obtaining a very high level of long range performance. I’ve been shooting smokeless for 23 years. 50 cal/sabots , then 45/sabots & simultaneously 40/bore sized (2001-2002) , 45 bore sized (2003, & 2019-2020), and since 2020, 40 (3 rifles) and 45 (saboted - 1 rifle). All the ( ) were start dates.

I hunt out to 300-400 yards with <200 yards for 90+ %. 2 of my 40s and my 45 are capable of heavy loads. Having no desire for heavy recoil that also is scope stressing, I try to shoot the flattest, accurate, efficient loads possible.

While in a 50/45 sabot, I understand the usage of 300g bullets for longer ranges, I’m convinced that 275g or greater weight bore sized in a lighter 45 (break open or nut gun) compromises trajectory along with needless excessive recoil. Saboted shooting with a lighter, higher BC bullet would be much more efficient. Even in my 18# (ready to hunt), 700ML Brux, MB, I shoot saboted 40 cal bullets (225-253g) at 2900-2950 with <MOA accuracy. So pleasant to shoot, so accurate, so easy on the scope, so deadly on deer.

Summary. If legal, 40 cal smokeless rifles offer the best of everything, IMO.
If not legal, 45 saboted needs to be tried before rejecting it. Bore sized shooting does obtain maximum accuracy regardless of caliber though. If recoil is not a negative, boresized in a 45 is still likely the most accurate long range setup.

My personal minimalist mentality shows through. I don’t want to push this on others. I just think that saboted shooting is not considered viable by a lot of shooters because of various reasons.

I shoot plenty of bullet/sabot combos. i always come back to cast bullets. they just fit my type of shooting best.
i have recently started shopping for a couple .40 cal molds so i can shoot some saboted cast bullets. Getting sabots is the part i dont care for. if i could make sabots myself, as cheap and easily as i can make bullets, then I would be ecstatic. cant help myself, Im a cheap-skate(wife calls me frugal as if that is better somehow)