N-120 vs 5744

[jeff]

I was wondering... Looking for some feedback actually...

I recently bought an ML-10 and based on some of the articles I read here, I purchased a jug of 5744 to drive 300g saboted bullets (specifically the xtp).

As I continue to read and read, I discover this article, by Randy Wakeman: http://www.savageshooters.net/Muzzleloa ... Loads.html

In his treatise, he shows a chamber pressure v. velocity chart which would indicate (at least to me, a smokeless muzzleloading novice) that N-120 drives a 300g saboted bullet faster with less chamber pressure. The article goes on to explain that excessive chamber pressure decreases sabot integrity causing a degradation in accuracy (which seems pretty obvious to this novice).

So, I ask, other than the "scoopability" advantage for novices with the dippers (not a concern for me with a scale and a trickler from my rifle/pistol reloading addiction lol), why would anyone choose 5744 over N-120 on 300g sabots from an ML-10?

 

[Anonymous]

Scoopability, availability, ignitability, and reliability are the strengths of 5744-- along with personal preference, of course.

 

[Grouse]

4759 is a better choice. :wink:

 

[jeff]

Good Grief lol.

Where can you get all the pressure/velocity data for all the powders with 300g bullets?

Randy, didnt you write in one of your articles that your favorite load was a barnes original with n-120? (In fairness, I realize a favorite load is purely a period of time during which the next favorite is being selected). Btw, I was impressed with your shipping speed, thank you. Is the reliability and ignitability in hunting conditions ever so slightly better, or a landslide victory?

Grouse, seriously lol. If you love 4759, why do you recommend 5744 in the newbie post? Im going bonkers trying to keep up lol. All kidding aside, upon what did you conclude that 4759 is your favorite?

 

[Grouse]

Grouse, seriously lol. If you love 4759, why do you recommend 5744 in the newbie post? Im going bonkers trying to keep up lol. All kidding aside, upon what did you conclude that 4759 is your favorite?

:lol: :lol: 5744 is my favorite powder. If i was going to switch it would be to 4759. Less pressure, less powder, more velocity. :wink: I've been shooting some different powders in the Savage. The book loads seem to be pretty good.

 

[Anonymous]

Randy, didnt you write in one of your articles that your favorite load was a barnes original with n-120? (In fairness, I realize a favorite load is purely a period of time during which the next favorite is being selected). Btw, I was impressed with your shipping speed, thank you. Is the reliability and ignitability in hunting conditions ever so slightly better, or a landslide victory?

Well, it is "a favorite," as are others: http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_10ML_pet_loads.htm. But, along with that, certainly everyone finds what their individual gun likes to be fed. Reloder 7 and Alliant 2400 were a couple of the earliest Savage approved powders, and they still are. 4227 is still being used by a quite a few folks as well. The only person you have to please is yourself, and unless you really need to shoot past 200 yards with regularity-- there are a lot of ways to get the job done.

5744 is a double based powder, and is known as a "position insensitive" powder. Henry Ball and his team still shoot 5744 after all these years, and that is not sheer happenstance.

Any time you get a 300 grain .45 caliber bullet out of the gate at 1800, 1900, 2000, 2100 fps-- if you put it in the right spot, not much on hooves is going to live all that long. I can't say "better" or "best" anymore than I can give you the "best" 12 or 20 ga. handload for another specific firearm, and handloading is what we are all doing.

An opinion is that yes, 5744 is a far better field powder than a IMR-4227, but with a 300 gr. properly fitting sabot, clean breechplug, etc., it would be hard to call any number of propellants as truly "unsuitable."

It is the shockingly boring topic of "adequacy." If your combination gets the job done for you, then so it does. No deer really cares whether you used 2400, N110, 5744, RL-7, 4227, SR4759 on him-- and all of them have done the job for many, many years by now. All are Savage approved powders. Do we want 20 different loads to fiddle with? Some may, but most want only one.

5744 is a very easy powder to use, and it is no mistake to start with it and decide for yourself what it is you seek to do that 5744 and a 300 gr. sabot can't do for you in a hunting application. An extra 100 - 200 fps at the muzzle just doesn't mean a lot by the time you hit 200 yards.

 

[Loggy]

I am a 5744 fan! Have shot both 250 & 300 grainers with it & performs flawlessly at the range & in ALL hunting conditions i have experienced.

 

[dwhunter]

Fo the 300gr. class bullets I'd choose the N120 then the 5744. :wink:

 

[squirrelhawker]

I have been a reloading hobbyist for probably over twenty years I guess.
Not an expert by any means. Loading for the .223 win. .308 win., .270 win,.243 ..I usually chose a powder that filled the case, sometimes a compressed load. (all bolt action rifles...generally medium to heavy barrels.) I
seemed to have good results with that. I realize there were/are other powders with faster burn rates that could have done well also.
The fascinating concept (I am easily fascinated ) with my Savage MLll
is the barrel is the chamber and the "case". The "case fits the "chamber" perfectly. :wink: Every loading is a "compressed" load.

I think if one does everything with consistency in loading/ shooting ...fine accuracy is possible with many powders
I am going to be doing some shooting this spring with the Savage with different bullet/ powder combinations ..one or two powders I cant mention here. :lol:
Dont know for sure- but I'm a bettin that when comparing the difference between, lets say, IMR SR-4759 and N-120 regarding accuracy potential... how much coffee I drank that morning could be the determining factor..ha ha :lol:

So why, you may wonder, am I going to try a bunch of powders.....it will be an excuse to shoot a lot....!!!

Vince
s.w. Ohio

 

[jeff]

Ive been reloading for ten or so, and also try to fill the cases, like you.

Here was my rationale:

1) Sabots are prone to damage by increasing pressure.
2) Sabot integrity is a key component to ML10-II accuracy.
3) Some powders generate similar velocity with meaningfully less pressure.
4) Powder volume is unimportant due to the lack of a case.

If all the above is true, It would seem to me, that the goal would be:

Find a powder which will deliver a 300gr bullet at a reasonable velocity for your max distance, with the least pressure possible. In my case 200 yards is that distance.

From that standpoint, 5744 does not seem to be the best fit. Other powders will create less pressure, and shoot flatter over 200 yards.

All the above is theoretical however, and it would seem based upon all the VERY experienced replies above, that this isnt as important as Im making it.

Thanks for the input

 

[Anonymous]

Here was my rationale:

1) Sabots are prone to damage by increasing pressure.
2) Sabot integrity is a key component to ML10-II accuracy.
3) Some powders generate similar velocity with meaningfully less pressure.
4) Powder volume is unimportant due to the lack of a case.

Sabots may be damaged by pressure, of course-- but they are also damaged by heat. That's why heat of explosion values are important, and cooler burning powders offer appeal. Sabots are not designed to be reused, and either a combination gives you the repeatable accuracy you seek, or it doesn't. Repeatable MOA loads show that no sabot problem exists, and sabots get better all the time.

You can put too much emphasis on peak pressure, as that is only momentary. Either the sabot is damaged to the point of affecting something, or it isn't. It is really a go / no go situation. If there is no accuracy degradation, lowering peak pressure below where you are at is meaningless.

As long as you have no resultant accuracy problem, there is nothing wrong with a powder that rises to peak quickly. It may be preferable, as in shotshells which use some of the fastest powders out there. A relatively quick rise obturates the sabot base within the first few fractions of an inch of movement, giving you a quick seal with minimal or no blow-by.

"Pressure" may be amusing to talk about, but if all your bullets are going through the same hole the point is completely moot. It varies by gun, primer, sabot, ambient temperature-- a 5000 PSI peak pressure variance is common, and very easy to find. Your chrono can't read it, as its existence is far too short of a time interval to affect velocity greatly. None of us really knows what pressure that last shot was with any great precision.

All Savage loads are 100% loading density. Volume may not be a big factor to you, but an increase in charge weight may mean unnecessary recoil and cost; slower powders may give you an inefficient burn meaning more barrel fouling. If you want to efficiently burn your powder in a short usable barrel length, slightly faster burning powders offer that.

I'll give an example, that being the factory 10ML-II SS / Laminated my 77 years young father hunts with. Last three shots he has taken with 44 gr. of 5744: dead deer @225 yards, dead javelina @ 150 yards or so, dead feral hog @ about 135 yards. Three shots, three quick and clean single shot kills out to 225 yards. Never a misfire, blooper, or hangfire-- always a quick, satisfying "crack."

It would take a lot to convince my Dad that his 44 gr. 5744 in a 10ML-II is somehow inadequate, borderline, or deficient. It would take a lot more time to convince Henry Ball that the 1500 + head of deer taken by 5744 in his hunting camp over the years, either by him or witnessed by him, is inadequate-- the longest one-shot kill, with 5744, being at 430 yards

There are countless combinations, and many that an individual may find "preferable" for one reason or another. It is hard to argue with a powder that goes bang every time, and throws them in the same hole although there are certainly technically lower peak pressure loads that give you more muzzle velocity and recoil.

The position insensitivity, easy ignition, temperature insensitivity, and additional moisture insensitivity of 5744 is due primarily to its double base composition-- 20% nitro. It needs less backpressure to sustain combustion than most single based powders, a very good thing when you are using a very low coefficient of friction sabot that means a very low shot start pressure with its very low resistance to movement.

 

[jeff]

dang! What a response!

Thanks!

 

[Loggy]

Agree jeff. Randy sure provided a fine review of reality there! Sure hard as a novice to refute the 10 ML's Inventor's Choice of Powder. :wink:

 

[JD]

Jeff 5744 is a fine powder to shoot. It's very reliable and easy to use. you can either dip it or measure it . Either way I have found that it is a lot more forgiving than N-120 if you loads don't match gr. for gr. with every shot.

For the most part it's all about preference. Find a powder your comfortable with and try some different loads until your happy with what your shooting.

 

[JD]

Grouse, seriously lol. If you love 4759, why do you recommend 5744 in the newbie post? Im going bonkers trying to keep up lol. All kidding aside, upon what did you conclude that 4759 is your favorite?

:lol: :lol: 5744 is my favorite powder. If i was going to switch it would be to 4759. Less pressure, less powder, more velocity. :wink: I've been shooting some different powders in the Savage. The book loads seem to be pretty good.

Grouse looks like you had a chance to shoot 4759.. How did you like it ?

 

[Grouse]

Grouse looks like you had a chance to shoot 4759.. How did you like it ?

One bad day with it, one good day. I need to try with 300grn bullets. Chuck is having really good luck with 40grns and 300grn bullets. :wink:
I was shooting it alot faster. I need to back off on the charges.

 

[JD]

Grouse looks like you had a chance to shoot 4759.. How did you like it ?

One bad day with it, one good day. I need to try with 300grn bullets. Chuck is having really good luck with 40grns and 300grn bullets. :wink:
I was shooting it alot faster. I need to back off on the charges.

I saw chucks results[very good]. keep me updated , I think I may try 4759 also.

 

[Grouse]

Grouse looks like you had a chance to shoot 4759.. How did you like it ?

One bad day with it, one good day. I need to try with 300grn bullets. Chuck is having really good luck with 40grns and 300grn bullets. :wink:
I was shooting it alot faster. I need to back off on the charges.

I saw chucks results[very good]. keep me updated , I think I may try 4759 also.

1/2 pound cans are nice. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I have been a reloading hobbyist for probably over twenty years I guess.
Not an expert by any means. Loading for the .223 win. .308 win., .270 win,.243 ..I usually chose a powder that filled the case, sometimes a compressed load. (all bolt action rifles...generally medium to heavy barrels.) I
seemed to have good results with that. I realize there were/are other powders with faster burn rates that could have done well also.
The fascinating concept (I am easily fascinated ) with my Savage MLll
is the barrel is the chamber and the "case". The "case fits the "chamber" perfectly. :wink: Every loading is a "compressed" load.

I think if one does everything with consistency in loading/ shooting ...fine accuracy is possible with many powders
I am going to be doing some shooting this spring with the Savage with different bullet/ powder combinations ..one or two powders I cant mention here. :lol:
Dont know for sure- but I'm a bettin that when comparing the difference between, lets say, IMR SR-4759 and N-120 regarding accuracy potential... how much coffee I drank that morning could be the determining factor..ha ha :lol:

So why, you may wonder, am I going to try a bunch of powders.....it will be an excuse to shoot a lot....!!!

Vince
s.w. Ohio

Vince I like your approach.......use any excuse to get out and shoot a lot ! Sabots of course!!

 

[squirrelhawker]

Vince I like your approach.......use any excuse to get out and shoot a lot ! Sabots of course!!

My wife just cant seem to understand stuff like that!!
:?

Vince