Questions about Knight Bighorn 209 conversion

[badcrc]

I have a Knight Bighorn using musket caps and I'm interested in doing the 209 conversion since it's now legal in WA, which I was told involved just switching out the breech plug. I can't seem to find just the breech plug, but instead I'm finding the 209 conversion kit that makes you use plastic jacketed primer holders. This brings up some questions that I can't seem to find an answer to, such as:

1) Can you re-use the plastic jackets or are you stuck buying those forever?
2) If you can re-use the jackets how do you get the primers out easily?
3) I don't see any kind of capper that you can carry around your neck with a bunch of jacketed primers ready to load like the old school musket cappers I use, so how is everyone carrying them hunting? Or do they fit into the musket capper/decappers?
4) In WA we were always irritated being forced to hunt with an exposed breech (not even allowed to tape over it in the rain) and musket caps. Now I'm wondering if it's worth doing the 209 conversion on the BH since the breech is still exposed. Would it make more sense to sell the BH and get a CVA break barrel with the enclosed breech (which is now legal) and not have to worry about the plastic jacketed primers?
5) If the bare primer breech plug is still available somewhere I'm not seeing what kind of hammer/firing pin does the BH need exactly? I read it needs to be a "universal" on a forum but the picture shows a coned shape on the hammer and the OP noted it was ground down to shoot some kind of primer so it wasn't much help. Mine isn't really pointed and it's not flat on the end, it's kind of coned but rounded on the end.
6) What's the reason the bare primer breech plug isn't available? Disadvantage over the jacketed?

 

[dbowling]

I've used both on a mk85 and much prefer the musket cap a lot less hassle and ignition just as good when using the black powder substitutes or real black powder...these guns were designed to be used with #11 caps so musket caps are a step up in ignition which is 100 percent reliable with #11 caps.
You can usually reuse the rpj a couple times.
Bare primer is only available for Knights bolt guns(disc, mountaineer etc) will not work on plunger style guns.

 

[badcrc]

I've used both on a mk85 and much prefer the musket cap a lot less hassle and ignition just as good when using the black powder substitutes or real black powder...these guns were designed to be used with #11 caps so musket caps are a step up in ignition which is 100 percent reliable with #11 caps.
You can usually reuse the rpj a couple times.
Bare primer is only available for Knights bolt guns(disc, mountaineer etc) will not work on plunger style guns.

Okay, I'm thinking along similar lines as you, but I haven't ever used loose powder, only pellets. So on one hand I'm thinking I could just stick with musket caps and cover the breech with tape or plastic wrap, or I could get the extra protection with the jackets and 209 and have more reliable ignition in the rain. I'm still wondering how people carry the FPJs, in their pocket loose?

 

[ShawnT]

There is no "Capper" made for the RPJ (Red Plastic Jackets) that I am aware of. They are sort of large for that. The RPJ "Might" make the ignition a little more water "Resistant" than a standard Musket or #11 cap. The RPJ can be reused as Dean said but there will be carbon inside, and out, after firing that could make it seal a little less each time you reuse them. You would have to make yourself a little jig to de-prime them too. Knight has a tool (Like a pliers type tool) for priming the RPJ. I did it once but did not really find it beneficial to keeping and action clean if your not worried about a clean action then its ok. I am talking about a rifle shooting 2 pellets or more or lager loose charges such as used for a deer rifle.

As for the "Cone" in the hammer it sounds like yours has that (New Big Horn should) and it is a Universal type hammer that will work with #11 caps, musket caps or 209 primers, the point of the cone is not that sharp and is a little rounded. The Thread you most likely read about grinding that cone down was not to fire a Primer but to shoot #11 caps without destroying the nipple. The #11 cap is much smaller in diameter than a musket cap and so is the nipple, so the cone will drive into the opening of the nipple and flare it out. Grinding that cone down so you have a small Flat on the end eliminated this nipple damage making the nipple last significantly longer.

You can get small vials such as a Lanes Vial to carry hose RPJs in, and they work great for powder loose or pellets.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-New-Black-P ... SwstxVTjl5

Most have found no real advantage to the 209 primer in a plunger rifle and a lot of us stick to #11 caps. Pellets are the exception in that the pellets don't light off well if at all with #11 caps so you need the musket cap or a 209 primer. Also as Dean stated they no longer make a Bare Primer breech plug for the plunger rifle that I know of either.

This is the plug you would need and some RPJ's. This link is direct from Knight but you might find one elsewhere cheaper.

http://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/ve ... eech-plug/

Priming tool. These are usually available elsewhere too.

http://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/ea ... hand-tool/

As for De-priming the RPJ, you can put the RPJ over something that leaves the primer exposed and then use a small punch to push or knock it out. This is my little jig and I just use a small punch or a #4 nail with the tip ground off flat, works well.

Large hole on left is for the RPJ's. The other is a Speer capsule for an MK-95.

Large cavity on the bottom of the block provides a place for the spent primers to fall into. Note the nail for pushing them out.

 

[badcrc]

ShawnT thanks for all the info. Sorry I was calling them FPJ because that's what Knight calls them (full plastic jackets). I found the 209 conversion for $38 on Natchez so I ordered it to try it out. I want to switch up my setup because the last couple years when I went to sight it in I was getting really inconsistent shot placement. Right now I'm using 150 grains of pyrodex pellets with 295 Aerotips, which is what my brother always used, and I bought the rifle from him about 4 years ago. Now doing some research after I had such bad results I'm going to try the 209s with some 777 pellets with 100 grains and a Hornady or Barnes bullet. My nephew has some Hornady and Barnes with and without sabots he never used so I can test out a variety with the 209 and see what I like. If I don't like the RPJ setup I might just try some #11s with powder for once.

Attached is a picture of my plunger (ya it's dirty, I've been shooting)

 

[ShawnT]

ShawnT thanks for all the info. Sorry I was calling them FPJ because that's what Knight calls them (full plastic jackets). I found the 209 conversion for $38 on Natchez so I ordered it to try it out. I want to switch up my setup because the last couple years when I went to sight it in I was getting really inconsistent shot placement. Right now I'm using 150 grains of pyrodex pellets with 295 Aerotips, which is what my brother always used, and I bought the rifle from him about 4 years ago. Now doing some research after I had such bad results I'm going to try the 209s with some 777 pellets with 100 grains and a Hornady or Barnes bullet. My nephew has some Hornady and Barnes with and without sabots he never used so I can test out a variety with the 209 and see what I like. If I don't like the RPJ setup I might just try some #11s with powder for once.

Attached is a picture of my plunger (ya it's dirty, I've been shooting)

badcrc,

Nothing to be sorry for. FPJ (Full plastic Jacket) and RPJ (Red Plastic Jacket" is the same thing. Some of us refer to them as RPJ just because there was an Orange Disc for the Original Disc Rifle (Bolt Action).

The end of you plunger looks a bit odd to me. Never seen one quite like it. Does it look like someone removed part of the point that would have been there? If it is just round like that, I would have serious doubts that it would fire a 209 primer. The points are not all that sharp so to not Pierce the primer but just punch a dent in it. I have not actually seen the Big Horn but would think it is the same. Very interesting.

This is what my old one looked like for an MK-85 which is about the same rifle. The cone is actually larger than it looks in this pic but you can see that the point of it is not all that sharp.

As for the inconsistent Shot placement, the first question that immediately comes to mind is IF those pellets were old pellets that your brother had left over? Those Boxes that pellets come in are not sealed from Moisture so they can draw some over time and will cause erratic ignition and that can affect your accuracy greatly. That's the main reason I went back to Loose powder, it happened to me once a long time ago, drove me nuts at first trying to figure it out. Never tried musket caps with pellets myself but it would not surprise me if it caused some erratic ignition. Pellets need to get some good heat to get them lit off. Loose powder is so much easier to ignite and only needs the Musket cap or #11 caps to light it off consistently. Regular Loose Pyrodex RS or Select is much easier to light off than Pellets. Another thing to watch for using Pyrodex Pellets is that one end of each pellet is slightly darker, this is a very small amount of Black Powder to help with ignition. Make very sure that the dark end goes down the bore first. Those boxes also have a small pipe cleaner in them too. That is to slip into the center of the pellets to pick them up and insert them in your bore. Just helps with keeping oils (from your hands) and other contaminants off the pellets. You might want to drop your charge from 3 pellets to 2 also. Just because the rifle is rated for 3 (150gn) don't mean you need it. I always found that 2 was enough with most bullets to kill a deer out to 125 yard with plenty thump and was more accurate and had much more tolerable recoil. When I did shoot Pyrodex Pellets, I used them with a Hornady 300gn XTP or a Knight 310gn Lead HP and hammered deer to 125yards no problem. The Bear in my Avatar was taken with 2 pellets and a 300gn Swift A-Frame in an MMP HPH 12 sabot.

If you don't shoot a lot and want to carry Pellets over to the next year, start now with a Fresh box and at the end of the season Vacuum pack whats left over. If you have a small desi pack or two laying around drop them in the bag too. That will keep moisture out till next fall.

You will also see that most of us here don't use power belts. There are much better and Cheaper options out there. They just cost too much for what you get. You can save a good bit buying your bullets and sabots in bulk. If you want to stick with the power belts I would get a new box of pellets, if those are old, and try using just 2.

 

[T-Duster]

If you want a 209 conversion kit check this place. For near the price of a breech plug alone you can get a full kit. If I remember correct with shipping the are right at $50

https://www.natchezss.com/knight-muzzle ... n-kit.html

 

[badcrc]

If you want a 209 conversion kit check this place. For near the price of a breech plug alone you can get a full kit. If I remember correct with shipping the are right at $50

https://www.natchezss.com/knight-muzzle ... n-kit.html

Ya, that's the one I got, so I'm not worried about my plunger being rounded, I won't be using it for the 209s. I was just curious because I didn't see a plunger like mine. My brother only used it for the musket caps and it wasn't modified so I don't know.

ShawnT - great info, didn't think of vacuum sealing my pellets. I always keep them in the house in a dry place, but I did get them before last season. I was having inconsistent shots sighting in last year also but not as bad. I was dead on (about 1.5" groups @ 100 yds) year before last, then last year the first time I sighted in I wasn't hitting paper at 100yds. Moved up to 50 yds and it was nearly off the paper. Moved my rear sight to where it was hanging off the base a little and I was only getting about 4" groups but it was good enough so I left it. Now a few days ago I wasn't hitting paper again, moved up to 50yds and saw I was almost off paper to the left. Moved my sight to the right, perfectly centered, and I was pretty close to the bullseye at 50. Moved back to 100 and I was almost off the paper to the right side of the paper. Moved my sight left in between where it was originally and center position, and it was still about 4" right. Elevation was pretty good on all shots. Moved my sight back to where it was originally and I was shooting far right again. I started thinking either my pellets were goofy or the rifling was fouled after shooting so many shots (I shot 2-3 shots each time before adjusting the sight, without cleaning). So I went home to clean it and it was the dirtiest I've ever seen it.

I don't really maintain my muzzleloader like my other guns, so I pretty much just sight it in, clean it well before the season, then don't really clean it again until after the season. I keep it loaded the entire time unless I'm in rain or any moisture, then I shoot it off every night I hunt and swab the barrel and use bore butter after every few shots. My brother has a few muzzleloaders, so I was using this same gun for years before I bought it from him and never had a problem sighting it in like now. It has also always fired without issue using my method. Actually the only problems I've ever had was me forgetting to unscrew the plunger safety all the way. I don't like cleaning it while sighting it in because I know during hunting I won't be cleaning it, but I usually only fire 3-4 shots to sight it in so that was extreme. And yes, I know about the pyrodex powder side

Edit: by loaded I mean pellets and bullet. I take the cap off obviously and use a fresh cap when hunting. I usually buy new caps every other year.

 

[ShawnT]

Well now we have a new winkle. :wink: Bore butter is definitely not needed in your current set up. It can build up in the bore too. Those Power belts and Sabots are self lubricating so anything like Bore butter is not needed. If that were my rifle or recently acquired used rifle, I would scrub that stuff out. Some say you need to use Boiling water to get it out. I have never used it in my inlines and see no need for it. Ok for Full bore lead conicals or maybe PRB but something like the power belt or sabots it is just not needed, something else to mess with that can cause a problem and just an extra expense. For a Lube AFTER cleaning you can use most any good gun oil to protect the bore when you out the rifle away, I loke Montana Extreme Bore conditioner but have used BreakFree CLP too.

You may well be fighting 2 issues at once, build up of that bore butter and bad pellets. The description of you groups is what I experienced with bad pellets but I am also thinking in your case it is compounded by the bore butter. My suggestion is the remove the barreled action from the stock and strip it down (remove trigger plunger and Breech plug). Then put the Action down in a bucket and pour some boiling water through the muzzle, then run a patch up and down several times, Next add some detergent like Dawn and scrub the crap out of it in short stoked all the way up to "Pump" the soapy water up and out the muzzle and rinse again with hot water. Dry it out/off and run some good oil in there (in bore and out side) to protect it from rust. I personally would go one step farther and go a round with JB Bore polish, clean that out and then lube. At the range run one patch (Use both sides) lightly dampened with Windex, then follow that with a dry patch (both sides). Now pop 2 or 3 primers or caps, load (skip the BB) and shoot. If it loads ok with the next couple shots then swab every 3, you may well do ok with power belts then do that but those Pellets and even loose Pyrodex will leave a crud ring. If you go to sabots I would swab after every shot due to the crud ring. I even do that in the field hunting with just a spit patch. I carry a couple of patches in my pocket and just put one in my mouth, after firing, and then pull the ramrod and swab then dry with another patch, it really don't take that long. After scrubbing the crap out of that rifle. You can then try those pellets but I personally would go with a brand new box first to see if your groups improve.

I too leave mine loaded during the season and never had an issue but clean and lube immediately after season ends.

 

[badcrc]

ShawnT well that's great I just bought a new tube of bore butter last season. I guess another victim of listening to old school advice because they always did it. That does explain a lot though, the barrel is hard to clean every time. I was told by everyone in my family "that's just muzzleloaders" but it probably is that bore butter building up and fouling the rifling.

 

[ShawnT]

Bore butter was used a lot in sidelocks as a lube for full bore bullets and even as a patch lube for patched Roundballs (PRB), so it does have a place. Unfortunately some of the "old Ways" can carry over to the new modern inline's. Lots of guys have learned some just don't apply anymore to the new modern rifles and projectiles, most of us have been there. Was not that long ago that 45 cal inline's with a 1 in 20 twist rifling was condemned for blowing out/shredding sabots, but the new formulations in the sabots make them very desirable. Another old myth that hangs around is that "Sabot Plastic builds up in the bore". Never seen that myself. So don't feel bad. If you don't know then you don't know, or it can be very frustrating tying to figure it out on your own. My first inline came close to getting wrapped around a pole a time or 2 trying to figure stuff out on my own since I started with a sidelock and tried to jump into the inline world with new rifle new powders and sabots new bullets and had no one I knew that shot one. Wish I had known of a site like this back then. Man would it have cut the learning curve down. :lol:

That's the Great thing about coming to a site like this one that has Tons of ML knowledge to share. We all learn from one another. :yeah:

If you rifle is very hard to clean then a good scrubbing will do wonders for it. Really shooting Pyrodex is not that hard to clean but you just need to do so as soon as you can so it don't start corroding the metal. I have cleaned Barrels with Windex, Knight Solvent, Prestone Bug Wash (Windshield washer fluid that has a little soap in it) and just plain old soapy water like I did my old sidelock. Windex is cheap and can be used to clean the whole rifle, some guys like to mix it 50/50 with Alcohol. Pyrodex and 777 will get a build up where the bullet meets the powder. Its affectionately called the "Crud Ring". Really about all sub powders cause it with BH209 the exception. Also 209 primers can make it more prevalent, So swabbing between shots makes it more easy to load and to do final cleaning. There are some 209 primers that are specifically made for muzzleloaders and they are not as hot as standard shotgun 209 primers. The down side to the 209 ML primers are they are more expensive. But may be a good option for you in that Big horn but in standard primers look for the Blue Box Win 209. You definitely don't need a Mag Primer such as Fed209A or CCI 209M.

Don't know when your season starts but I would get the bore scrubbed out then use some JB Bore paste on it to really polish the bore out. I even use it on any brand new rifle, Any Used rifle I buy, and once in a while on my rifles I shoot a lot. Get in there with a very tight patch wrapped around an old brush or on a jag and scrub in short back and forth strokes advancing till you reach the end of the barrel. Flip the patch and add a little more and go at it again. Sometimes you can go about 25 strokes and it will really make a big difference, and on some you might need to go about 100 strokes. Clean it out very good to get all the JB out and then lube it till your ready yo shoot. When you load you will most likely see a big difference in how it loads and cleans up.

If you have never used it this is the product I am talking about.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning- ... d1160.aspx