Range Report: .50 Renegade with sized Hornady Great Plains bullets

[WP79Vet]

For such a simple pursuit, there are so many moving parts…

NOTHING is simple if you get far enough into it..... ! That's may be a good thing... if it were otherwise boredom would set in pretty fast. Nevertheless I DO wish that women were a lot simpler.

 

[Bad Karma]

NOTHING is simple if you get far enough into it..... ! That's may be a good thing... if it were otherwise boredom would set in pretty fast. Nevertheless I DO wish that women were a lot simpler.

Yeah, I like looking into what works and why but at a certain point I’m apt to just remember a fellow saying “don’t let perfect become the enemy of good enough.”

WRT understanding of fairer sex, yes, the complexity, and the mystery are just two of the things that make life with one so darned difficult! And wonderful…

 

[WP79Vet]

This afternoon I bought a pound of T7 2F, and put a smaller peep in my Skinner sight.

Since dinner I've sized 20 more HGPs, concocted a batch of SPG-Idaho lube (8 oz SPG + 1 oz Alox + 2.0 oz Stihl Ultra 2-cycle oil), put the bullets in a non-stick cake pan, heated the bullets and pan to 220 degrees, poured the SPG-I into the hot pan, and am waiting for it all to cool.

We're supposed to have 4 days in the high 40s and low 50s next week, which should be ideal for further range work. I'll report the next round of results in a new thread.

When I'm not shooting or getting ready for the next shooting session, I'll be felling and bucking trees for next year's firewood, burning branches, starting in on re-plumbing our house and remodeling our basement (this year's winter projects), and enjoying photos of my first grandson, Callahan Daniel Schultz, who was born in Manitowoc WI on 11/27. I apparently raised his dad right.... he's already bought the kid one of those 3-wheel all-terrain push strollers, and is asking me about mounting bow and rifle scabbards on it.

Cheers, and thanks to everybody for all the helpful remarks and suggestions.

 

[Bad Karma]

54 cal wad in a 50?????
Good to know

Yes. It’s easy except in the really small bores, getting a .45 started in a .40 or a .40 in a .375… if they don’t start easily, kind of squeeze them in half and slip partway in before straightening into the bore and sending them down onto the powder charge.

 

[biggamehunter78]

How did you end up doing with this?

 

[bronko220002]

Well let's give this a shot:
1. What are the pros and cons of swabbing after every shot? Could this be reducing my accuracy?
I swab after every shot to more duplicate hunting.
2. Are the small number of tiny lead flecks that I saw after every shot when using 60 gr (w) charges a problem? If so, what might be causing it, and are there ways of solving it?
Any leading is an issue. IMO it means that the bullet isn't solidly engaging the rifling (the bullet is being sheared by the rifling)

3. I can probably size down to .5005 or so and get even easier loading while maintaining enough friction between bullet and barrel to hold the bullets on the powder while climbing around in elk country. Is this likely to help with leading or accuracy?
I know this sounds contradictory but your bullet should be sized .001" larger than bore diameter. Making it smaller will only increase your leading.

4. Will using wads help with accuracy or leading? If some improvement seems likely, I have some 1/8 thick lubed wads in both .50 and .54 to try. A wad under a bullet with a concave base has never made much sense to me because it seems unlikely that the wad would end up perfectly centered - going down or coming out, but some people report good luck with it. What are your experiences?
I would definitely try a wad.

5. What are your thoughts on why was accuracy so poor with the 70 gr. (w) charges?
IMO this was due to an undersized bullet and high pressure The bullet did not properly engage the rifling.

Any other thoughts or observations?
I like Ed's idea of trying some real black powder. But if its unavailable then I would drop my charge down to 70 gr volume with that big chunk of lead.
That's more than enough medicine for elk.

Sorry I know its late but I just saw this. I hope you were successful.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Assuming the patch isn't sopping wet, which will likely give a wet charge misfire, there are no downsides to swabbing. Especially with T7. It's fouling builds at least as fast as Black, and is harder too. Hard fouling REALLY gouges up soft lead.
A uniform bore condition is crucial. A moist patch( I use rubbing alcohol) down/ back flip and repeat, then a dry and reload. Takes longer to type it than to do it.
Although some have, I never had luck with conicals and T7. Holy Black is the way to go. Ymmv...
In my 24 inch Firehawk ( 1-38 twist), 70 grains of 3f Swiss ( I weigh all charges) and a home cast Lyman Plains ( 400 grains) lubed with SPG and a .54 caliber Ox Yoke pre lubed wad gets 1350 fps, no leading and inch and a quarter 3 rounders at 100 yards.
My Hawken ( 1-48 twist) gets about 2 to 2 1/2 inches for 3 at 100. No wad and I get little flakes of lead. And 4 inch groups.
With the wad, no lead and 2 - 2 1/2inchers.
Idaho Lewis recommends going up a caliber with the wads. Based on my experience, I'm with him 100%. It's no trouble getting them started straight. I push them down when ramming the bullet. No need for an extra step.

 

[WP79Vet]

Assuming the patch isn't sopping wet, which will likely give a wet charge misfire, there are no downsides to swabbing. Especially with T7. It's fouling builds at least as fast as Black, and is harder too. Hard fouling REALLY gouges up soft lead.
A uniform bore condition is crucial. A moist patch( I use rubbing alcohol) down/ back flip and repeat, then a dry and reload. Takes longer to type it than to do it.
Although some have, I never had luck with conicals and T7. Holy Black is the way to go. Ymmv...
In my 24 inch Firehawk ( 1-38 twist), 70 grains of 3f Swiss ( I weigh all charges) and a home cast Lyman Plains ( 400 grains) lubed with SPG and a .54 caliber Ox Yoke pre lubed wad gets 1350 fps, no leading and inch and a quarter 3 rounders at 100 yards.
My Hawken ( 1-48 twist) gets about 2 to 2 1/2 inches for 3 at 100. No wad and I get little flakes of lead. And 4 inch groups.
With the wad, no lead and 2 - 2 1/2inchers.
Idaho Lewis recommends going up a caliber with the wads. Based on my experience, I'm with him 100%. It's no trouble getting them started straight. I push them down when ramming the bullet. No need for an extra step.

I don't see any downsides to swabbing either, provided that the patches are moist rather than sopping wet, and provided that dry patches are used to remove as much moisture as possible to avoid powder neutralization.

It seems that most people who find success by putting wads under full-bore conicals are using FLAT BASE conicals, such as the Lyman Great Plains bullets that you are using.

I'm using Hornady Great Plains bullets, which have concave bases. I posted what I found when comparing accuracy of HGPs with and without wads to the thread "Wads and PRB / Great Plains rounds". Here's an excerpt from that post:

"Using a wad between bullet and powder was suggested by several knowledgeable members of this forum, so yesterday I tried it out. With an HGP sized to .501 and pan-lubed with SPG-Idaho (8 oz SPG, 1 oz ALOX, 2.6 oz Stihl Ultra HD 2 cycle oil), over 70 grs W (measured by weight) of T7-2F, I was able to shoot a group measuring 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. Measured velocities were between 1379 and 1432 FPS. Keeping everything the same, but adding a 1/8 thick .54 wool wad between bullet and powder, with the wad loaded as IdahoLewis suggested in an earlier thread, the group size for my next 5 shots blew up to 7.0 inches (!), with three of the shots on the margins of the group. Measured velocity range for this group was 1389 - 1425."

This is very similar to that I found when putting wads under unsized HGPs.

The issue, I'm guessing, is that with a concave base, it seems very unlikely that the wad and the concave base of the bullet will be exactly aligned, and so one edge of the wad will engage the rim of the concave base less heavily than the other edges. Pressure from the burning powder will therefore push the more lightly engaged edge of the wad into the concave base first, resulting in uneven pressure on the base of the bullet, uneven expansion of the concave base to engage the rifling, and a bullet which is out of round as it exits the muzzle of the rifle.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

The factory Plains bullet wasn't as accurate in either rifle. But a .54 cal wad did improve accuracy, and no leading.

 

[eekjellander]

I don't see any downsides to swabbing either, provided that the patches are moist rather than sopping wet, and provided that dry patches are used to remove as much moisture as possible to avoid powder neutralization.

It seems that most people who find success by putting wads under full-bore conicals are using FLAT BASE conicals, such as the Lyman Great Plains bullets that you are using.

I'm using Hornady Great Plains bullets, which have concave bases. I posted what I found when comparing accuracy of HGPs with and without wads to the thread "Wads and PRB / Great Plains rounds". Here's an excerpt from that post:

"Using a wad between bullet and powder was suggested by several knowledgeable members of this forum, so yesterday I tried it out. With an HGP sized to .501 and pan-lubed with SPG-Idaho (8 oz SPG, 1 oz ALOX, 2.6 oz Stihl Ultra HD 2 cycle oil), over 70 grs W (measured by weight) of T7-2F, I was able to shoot a group measuring 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. Measured velocities were between 1379 and 1432 FPS. Keeping everything the same, but adding a 1/8 thick .54 wool wad between bullet and powder, with the wad loaded as IdahoLewis suggested in an earlier thread, the group size for my next 5 shots blew up to 7.0 inches (!), with three of the shots on the margins of the group. Measured velocity range for this group was 1389 - 1425."

This is very similar to that I found when putting wads under unsized HGPs.

The issue, I'm guessing, is that with a concave base, it seems very unlikely that the wad and the concave base of the bullet will be exactly aligned, and so one edge of the wad will engage the rim of the concave base less heavily than the other edges. Pressure from the burning powder will therefore push the more lightly engaged edge of the wad into the concave base first, resulting in uneven pressure on the base of the bullet, uneven expansion of the concave base to engage the rifling, and a bullet which is out of round as it exits the muzzle of the rifle.

I remember Lewis saying a 1/2 cotton ball in concave base works /Ed

 

[ElDiablo]

Just noticed this the other day. It’s interesting to note that when using loose (or pellet) 777, Hodgdon states, “All conical bullet loads perform best with a wad between the base of the bullet and the powder.”



https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/muzzleloading_manual_2008-1.pdf

 

[WP79Vet]

I remember Lewis saying a 1/2 cotton ball in concave base works /Ed

I'll have to try the 1/2 cotton ball. Will report back on what I find.

 

[WP79Vet]

Just noticed this the other day. It’s interesting to note that when using loose (or pellet) 777, Hodgdon states, “All conical bullet loads perform best with a wad between the base of the bullet and the powder.”

View attachment 39775

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/muzzleloading_manual_2008-1.pdf

Very interesting - thanks for posting.

Based on others posts, it seems that wads help with most flat base conicals, irrespective of powder used.

However, I've had very poor results with both .50 cal and .54 cal wads under .50 cal Hornady Great Plains, and under .50 cal Hornady PA conicals, both of which have concave bases, no matter how I load the wads and bullets, and no matter how carefully I go about it.

I have found that using Lewis' SPG lube blend without wads completely resolves the leading issues I was having with T7 and HGPs, at least up to muzzle velocities of around 1550 fps, which is the highest MV I've tested so far. I'm also getting reasonable accuracy without wads - five shot groups of 2 to 2 1/2 inches at 50 yards - although there's lots of room for improvement.

 

[ElDiablo]

I'm also getting reasonable accuracy without wads - five shot groups of 2 to 2 1/2 inches at 50 yards - although there's lots of room for improvement.

Sounds like you’re on track. There would be some here who would tell you you have to be developing your loads at 100 yards…lol…although I’m not one of them.

 

[Bad Karma]

Very interesting - thanks for posting.

Based on others posts, it seems that wads help with most flat base conicals, irrespective of powder used.

However, I've had very poor results with both .50 cal and .54 cal wads under .50 cal Hornady Great Plains, and under .50 cal Hornady PA conicals, both of which have concave bases, no matter how I load the wads and bullets, and no matter how carefully I go about it.

I have found that using Lewis' SPG lube blend without wads completely resolves the leading issues I was having with T7 and HGPs, at least up to muzzle velocities of around 1550 fps, which is the highest MV I've tested so far. I'm also getting reasonable accuracy without wads - five shot groups of 2 to 2 1/2 inches at 50 yards - although there's lots of room for improvement.

I used to use a small wad of of raw wool under those bullets and they worked pretty well. I’m told that triple 7 burns hotter than blackpowder (no idea if that is true or not) but if it is, a wad of something would be pretty important I would think.