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Pressure on the powder, should be as close to the same from load to load, to acheive maximum accuracy, yet I can't find any kind of loading tool, that gauges the downward pressure, on the rod, so that this can be acheived.

It seems like somewhere, someone, should have a pressure gauge, that can be put on top of the rod, to show you how much pressure you are packing your load with.
Has anyone ever heard of such a thing, and how do you go about finding one.?
 
I haven't heard of such a tool but maybe someone else has. I just try to be consistant pushing the bullet down on the powder. My idea about it is that some powders require constant bullet pressure to even ignite as well as give consistant groups. I know of at least one situation where a loose fitting bullet/sabot would cause a hang fire. I have not shot enough to determine whether seating pressure helps bullet groups or not. Maybe someone else may have experimented with this.
 
This is where the witness marks in the XS/Knight/Thompson Power Rods come in handy, they let you know that you're seating to same depth/pressure consistently. I think Thompson markets them now, mine was sold under Knight, but you can get them at Cabelas, Gander Mountain, or order online from Midsouth Shooters Supply and a host of other sites. It's probably the best accessory I've purchased.
 
The witness mark mainly lets you know whether you've already loaded or not to keep you from double charging your rifle. It really doesn't show how much downward pressure in pounds, for example, that you are putting on the bullet and powder charge. It is very important, however to form a habit of using and looking at the witness marks because it is so easy to make a mistake there.
 
I think there use to be a tool like this called the Kadoty? Not sure, seems like I remember seeing it several years ago.
 
Saw a pic of a guy setting the buttstock of his rifle on a bathroom scale while seating each bullet. Good at the range but no good in the bush hunting I imagine.
 
Found this perusing the net tonight while bored. This is a bit long, but seemed neat. I dont recall ever seeing one, just remember an advertisement. When you consider all we do to achieve accuracy, ie; weighing powder charges, trying differing charges and endless combinations of powders, primers and bullets, bedding, high dollar scopes and mounts- not much thought has been given by the industry to projectile seating pressure/ depth. Seems like someone other than the folks at the now out of business? KaDooty would have come up with a gauge or device that would accurately measure the seating pressure as it just makes good sense that this would seemingly yield more accuracy. If any of you have your wheels turning, design something that would fit over the end of a ramrod or rangerod and would be less than $100 :wink: Here it is, another interesting read on the subject.


What is KaDooty?
- Sam Fadala





"Testing for varying ramrod pressure effect on a load was actually a no-brainer. The key lay in standard deviation from the mean velocity. Standard deviation is a test for variance. A low number is good. A high number is bad. Because black powder is essentially inefficient, standard deviations are normally low for muzzleloaders, with slight differences in the exact powder charge making little difference in overall results. This is easy to understand. Consider Bullseye, a highly efficient smokeless powder. A mere .10 grain can be detected by a chronograph for some loads in certain firearms. On the other hand, black powder pet loads, such as 50.5 grains volume or 60.7, are a joke, because no muzzleloading rifle shoots great with 50.5 volume black powder but is not worth beans with 50.0 volume of the same propellant. The miniscule difference in powder charge is undetectable in either velocity or accuracy.

No chronograph I know of, regardless of quality, can tell the difference between 50.5 volume FFg against 50.0 or 51.0 volume in velocity. Black powder is simply too inefficient for that sort of result to take place, likewise 60.7 volume FFg, 60.0 or 61.0. The smaller the bore size, of course, the greater the sensitivity to minor powder charge alterations. We see this in modern cartridges as well as frontloaders. The .17 Remington is a prime example - small hole in barrel, big difference in velocity per powder charge. Likewise, a .32-caliber muzzleloader is more sensitive to powder charge variation than a .58 caliber, due to far smaller bore volume in the former, far larger in the latter.

Standard deviations in the five to 20 fps range (from the mean or average velocity) for muzzleloaders are relatively common, so why be concerned about varying ramrod pressure and improved results? Isn't that nitpicking? You bet it is, and nitpicking is what really good shooting is all about. Furthermore, standard deviation leaves the realm of nitpicking when ramrod pressure on the load is severely varied. Once again, we turn to modern cartridges for a comparison. The most accurate cartridges we have, across the board, are shorter rather than longer and somewhat on the fat side instead of slender. For supreme accuracy, they do best with 100 percent load density - a case full of powder. Benchresters consider part of the reason for this a matter of powder charge shape.

It's also a product of consistency. Rather than the charge lying in a trough in the case, it takes a specific shape (that of the interior) every time when the case is full. Frontloaders always have 100 percent load density - the powder charge is always compacted in the breech section, pushed into a column by the front-loaded projectile. Inconsistency enters, however, by how that charge is compressed - a little bit, a lot, or worse than either (accuracywise) varied pressure from one load to the next. Also, black powder burns most uniformly when compacted. This does not mean 100 pounds pressure on the loading rod. Since black powder is impact-sensitive, it's possible, at least in theory, to cause combustion through super compaction. I've never heard of this actually happening; however, it could.

As I studied varying loading rod pressure on a powder charge, I found that standard deviation dropped when this pressure was consistent. Conversely, it rose when ramrod pressure was haphazard. This is where the KaDOOTY? tool comes in. It was invented by Chriss Pace and Ben Guillory of Lake Charles, Louisiana. Ben is a machinist. Chriss's field is systems analysis. Both are muzzleloader fans who found that varying ramrod pressure could make a difference in velocity consistency. So they set out to make a loading tool that would prevent the problem - a practical device embodying much more than powder charge regulation. It turned out to be the KaDOOTY? , so-named because Chriss Pace used that term in place of "thing-a-ma-jig" when he couldn't think of the name of a tool. After the KaDOOTY? was independently tested, the name earned a licensed trademark for a new company called KaDOOTY? Manufacturing, LLC, and manufacture began in Lake Charles. So what is this new black-powder accessory?

In effect, it's a loading rod, but with a difference. Made of solid brass in the good old U.S.A. by union machinists, it comes as a kit - no, not to be put together like a bicycle from Sears - but five pieces boxed and ready to go to work. Each kit is made up of 16 pieces, including a slide assembly (five of the pieces), three rod sections and couplers, small combo seater, large combo seater, large and small bullet puller and an all-thread adapter. If the KaDOOTY? were only a pressure-regulator, it would be good, but it's much more than that, which is better. It's versatile, running 24 inches for revolvers and pistols and 38 to 50 inches for rifles and shotguns.

Plus, there are two different sizes - smallbore and large. The first is called the smallbore KaDOOTY? model; the second is the standard. The standard is for calibers .45, .50, .54 and .58, but will work on much larger calibers as well. The other is for .32, .36, .38, .40 and .44. Quality of workmanship is impeccable. What we have here is a sectional brass ramrod with weighted slide-hammer, plus the parts mentioned in general above, which are specifically three rod sections, three rod couplers, the slide (which can also be used as a T-handle), slide rod, bottom stop (one ring), top stop/crossover (10-32, two rings) thumb screw, all- thread ramrod adapter, small combo seater (four grooves), large combo seater (five grooves), small bullet puller and large bullet puller.

In my own tests, completed some time ago, I used several pressure regulators made for me by the late Chuck French, pen pal of many years. I found 45 to 65 pounds workable. Extensive testing by KaDOOTY? showed 65 pounds more ideal than higher or lower pressure on the powder charge. I also found 65 pounds about right, although I tested all the way up to 90 pounds. The KaDOOTY? slide handle achieves 65 pounds pressure on the charge due to the exact length of the slide rod providing specific " tamp pressure." By using a certain number of tamps, compaction of powder charge is regulated for consistency. Also, if we can believe tests, black powder burns best when under reasonable pressure, so the KaDOOTY? should provide an optimum powder burn to promote full velocity from the charge.

Personal shooting tests are still recommended to find how many tamps a certain firearm "likes" best. This can be decided with a chronograph for velocity consistency (standard deviation), but more importantly, I feel, by shooting from the bench for accuracy, keeping careful records of successive targets until a clear group advantage is discovered. Along with these properties, the other aspects of the tool are prudent conical and roundball pulling using the screws provided. The most impressive part of projectile removal is the ease with which this tool does the job, due to design. The shooter doesn't have to be big and strong to extract a loaded projectile. The rod also works in cleaning the firearm after the shooting fun is over. Also, the KaDOOTY? does not require a shooter to work over the muzzle, but rather from the side of the barrel.

As an extra, a "haversack" with long strap can be ordered with the KaDOOTY? . It's styled after the Civil War model that soldiers carried, and works well as a shooting bag (called a possibles bag these days, although that's the wrong word). The interior of the haversack contains several well-designed pockets that accept KaDOOTY? parts, but are also ideal for other accouterments. The container is a foot wide and 15 inches tall; it's made of heavy-duty, water and mildew resistant cotton canvas, and it closed with buttons. The haversack is also made in the U.S.A. There's a smaller "scabbard", 15 inches high but only 5 inches wide. It's ideal for holding the parts of the KaDOOTY? compactly and intact. It's made of the same material as the haversack.

Impressively, the KaDOOTY? was independently tested by the Department of Civil and Mechanical Engineering, McNeese State University, Lake Charles, Louisiana. The work was supervised by Dr. Janardanan Uppot. Dr. Uppot's "Summary and Conclusions" stated that "using the recommended tamps from the table will provide near optimum compression and inevitably an efficient powder burn. As compared to the ramrod, the KaDOOTY? did prove to be the superior method of achieving consistent blackpowder compression. Aside from consistent powder compression, the KaDOOTY? also was effective as a projectile-extracting device."

The company offers a lifetime replacement warranty based on reasonable shooter care and employment of the tool. "Should any part break of fail due to poor workmanship or material flaws, all you have to do is return the damaged part(s) to us and we will send you new ones." If an individual part is lost, it can be purchased separately. That's clear enough. Now, what does this multi-tool cost? The multi-life-time KaDOOTY? runs $150. It's one of those accouterments that you buy once and forget about replacing it - ever.


For more information write to KaDOOTY? Manufacturing, 842 S. Tamela Dr., Lake Charles, LA 70605." - Sam Fadala

RIFLE Sporting Firearms Journal
July 1998
Volume 30, #4 (#178)

Pages 64, 65, 66, 67
Section - PRODUCT TESTS
Article by, Sam Fadala


Information - [email protected]
KaDOOTY Products - P.O. Box 4682 - Lake Charles, LA 70606
Phone - 337.562.9008 | Fax - 337.477.7502
Toll-Free Order Line - 1.888.TRU-SHOT (1.888.878.7468
 
I don't know if this will help you or not..While attending the black powder shoots in Cherry Flats,PA....There was an older fellow there that would hit his ram rod with a mallet every time he reloaded..But he would also wipe the barrel with a couple of patches after each shot as well...
I watched a guy loading the pellets one time and he was wondering why he was hitting all over the place..Now I know very little about these pellets but I told him I thought he was crushing them when loading..Now wouldn't this cause different velocities? Enough rambling
 
Earlier I tried to revive this post with a link to a new product that accomplishes all that you guys were looking for. I didn't think I violated the rules as there were links to other products earlier in the thread but... my post seems to have been removed. Anyway, would love to share it with everybody. Send me a message if interested.
 
Re:

Harry1 said:
The witness mark mainly lets you know whether you've already loaded or not to keep you from double charging your rifle. It really doesn't show how much downward pressure in pounds, for example, that you are putting on the bullet and powder charge. It is very important, however to form a habit of using and looking at the witness marks because it is so easy to make a mistake there.

I think if you have the same bore conditions from shot to shot (wiping between shots), use the same powder & projectile, then distance compressed would be an accurate enough measure of the pressure applied to your load. Compression after all is what happens inside a typical modern bathroom scale. There is a load cell, a bi-metal post, usually one on each corner, that deflects a certain distance based on the weight (force, pressure) applied and then converts that deflection to electrical current which is mathematically converted to a force (weight) value and displayed. This is my long-winded way of saying that compression distance can be a useful method of consistently measuring and applying the same force to our loads - all other load conditions being equal. This is a pretty good read: http://www.blackpowdermag.com/load-compression-and-accuracy/

As for pounding my projectile like I've seen others do on TV or in YouTube videos, I think that is a good way to deform your projectile. No one likes to have their balls pounded.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :poke: :lol:
 
MuzzleLoadersPPacker said:
Earlier I tried to revive this post with a link to a new product that accomplishes all that you guys were looking for. I didn't think I violated the rules as there were links to other products earlier in the thread but... my post seems to have been removed. Anyway, would love to share it with everybody. Send me a message if interested.

If I were you, I would consider sending a couple of these out to some of the more active posters on here that shoot a lot and take lots of pics/video for field testing/review. Members like ronlaughlin and sabotloader and cayuga are some I have in mind that are very good about posting up range reports with pictures. I also believe these guys would tell everyone without bias, their honest thoughts about your product. IF it meets or exceeds the advertised advantages for accuracy and they say so, you could be well on your way to a good year of sales. Something to consider.
 
Re: Re:

JStanley said:
Harry1 said:
The witness mark mainly lets you know whether you've already loaded or not to keep you from double charging your rifle. It really doesn't show how much downward pressure in pounds, for example, that you are putting on the bullet and powder charge. It is very important, however to form a habit of using and looking at the witness marks because it is so easy to make a mistake there.

Absolutely agree with this.



I think if you have the same bore conditions from shot to shot (wiping between shots), use the same powder & projectile, then distance compressed would be an accurate enough measure of the pressure applied to your load........ This is my long-winded way of saying that compression distance can be a useful method of consistently measuring and applying the same force to our loads - all other load conditions being equal. This is a pretty good read: http://www.blackpowdermag.com/load-compression-and-accuracy/

quote]
Depending on how precise one wants to be......

The witness mark is a measurement of distance, not a measurement of force.

A witness mark isn't for and can't be used for a precise measurement of consistent accurate equal forces applied. Although it is sufficient for most shooters and loading but, compression forces will vary greatly. You would be hard pressed to have the average shooter load consistent pressures of +/- 20fpf using only a witness mark. Even a seasoned shooter would have a difficult time remaining within +/- 10fpf.
 
If I were you, I would consider sending a couple of these out to some of the more active posters on here that shoot a lot and take lots of pics/video for field testing/review. Members like ronlaughlin and sabotloader and cayuga are some I have in mind that are very good about posting up range reports with pictures. I also believe these guys would tell everyone without bias, their honest thoughts about your product. IF it meets or exceeds the advertised advantages for accuracy and they say so, you could be well on your way to a good year of sales. Something to consider.
Yes! Absolutely worth considering. I saw you posted the same over here http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28089 where it looks like a perfect place to continue the conversation.
 
Re: Re:

ENCORE50A said:
Depending on how precise one wants to be......

The witness mark is a measurement of distance, not a measurement of force.

A witness mark isn't for and can't be used for a precise measurement of consistent accurate equal forces applied. Although it is sufficient for most shooters and loading but, compression forces will vary greatly. You would be hard pressed to have the average shooter load consistent pressures of +/- 20fpf using only a witness mark. Even a seasoned shooter would have a difficult time remaining within +/- 10fpf.

This is a good clarification that I didn't make well enough the first time. I agree completely that the witness mark isn't precise enough to yield =/- 10 fpf because of the variation in eyeballing where to stop. However, the link I provided shows how compression distance can be engineered to be very consistent with the proper tooling. You could easily create a physical stop tool on a ramrod to very precisely compress the powder the same amount each load. In materials engineering, for a known substance (propellant) and a known cross section (bore dia.) the distance the material is compressed is directly proportional to the force applied. In the end, it's six of one, a half dozen of the other for force applied but I still don't want to risk deforming my projectile by pounding on it. I usually try to lean on the ramrod with the same amount of force each load - not scientific enough to shoot like ENCORE50A, Bestill, 52Bore and other really long range shooters require, but in my world of 200 yd shots and under, no deer could survive on the difference.
 
Re: Re:

JStanley said:
ENCORE50A said:
Depending on how precise one wants to be......

The witness mark is a measurement of distance, not a measurement of force.

A witness mark isn't for and can't be used for a precise measurement of consistent accurate equal forces applied. Although it is sufficient for most shooters and loading but, compression forces will vary greatly. You would be hard pressed to have the average shooter load consistent pressures of +/- 20fpf using only a witness mark. Even a seasoned shooter would have a difficult time remaining within +/- 10fpf.

This is a good clarification that I didn't make well enough the first time. I agree completely that the witness mark isn't precise enough to yield =/- 10 fpf because of the variation in eyeballing where to stop. However, the link I provided shows how compression distance can be engineered to be very consistent with the proper tooling. You could easily create a physical stop tool on a ramrod to very precisely compress the powder the same amount each load. In materials engineering, for a known substance (propellant) and a known cross section (bore dia.) the distance the material is compressed is directly proportional to the force applied. In the end, it's six of one, a half dozen of the other for force applied but I still don't want to risk deforming my projectile by pounding on it. I usually try to lean on the ramrod with the same amount of force each load - not scientific enough to shoot like ENCORE50A, Bestill, 52Bore and other really long range shooters require, but in my world of 200 yd shots and under, no deer could survive on the difference.

Ummmmm ...... you sound a little "engineery" ;)

I totally understand where you're going but, "precisely" won't be giving a precise FPF with a physical stop on the ramrod. It will give you the precise depth. Even barrel temperatures, propellant consistency, etc., even minor differences in the sabot and bullet itself, will stop short of precision FPF.

I'm actually interested in this outfit and how it exactly works and I certainly watched the video on FB. Yeah even without reading it first, I would have immediately caught that guy with a ramrod in the barrel, removing it and the firing the rifle :(

The concept of this is excellent and would certainly provide more shooters with better consistency seating bullets. I actually PM'ed the guy asking for more information. I have a couple suggestions that would make it even better yet and they'd be FREE.

My working career (Human Factors Engineering/Ergonomist) required me to understand how to and accurately measure forces. I've literally measured 10's of thousands of forces. I've used the highest quality measuring devices available, including accelerometers, well at least up until I retired. Now I don't care to much :lol:

I personally know the guy (Steve) in the blackpowder video link that shot in that test, he's a great guy and a really great shot.

I've done a lot of loading and seating tests using actual force gages.......



 
Re: Re:

ENCORE50A said:
Ummmmm ...... you sound a little "engineery" ;)

Guilty! :)

I agree with all the efforts to accurately reproduce the forces applied to our loads from shot to shot and your methodology is definitely to be commended. I guess my main beef is when I see folks bouncing their ramrods up and down on their loads or worse yet, pounding them with a mallet or some such object. Based on the impressive range results you've posted I'm positive you apply your loading force smoothly with the correctly shaped jag to ensure you don't deform your bullet/ball. I look forward to hearing more about this product too :yeah:

BTW - that nice force gauge you show works by compressing a spring to a distance, which is then converted to foot-pounds-force. :poke: :partyman:
 
Re: Re:

JStanley said:
ENCORE50A said:
Ummmmm ...... you sound a little "engineery" ;)

Guilty! :)

BTW - that nice force gauge you show works by compressing a spring to a distance, which is then converted to foot-pounds-force. :poke: :partyman:

That's a pretty expensive calibrated spring in that thing. :partyman: It ain't no bathroom scale either. :wink:

Honestly, if I wasn't shooting what I am, I'd jump right on that. As I said though, a couple modifications and I'd own more than one of'em.
 

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