Sticky petition/poll

[Sideshow]

The thread in inline muzzleloading forum ,"ENDS THE STUCK BREECH PLUG BLUES" , im putting up for a poll to be made a sticky . I hate to think of it getting "buried somewhere in time" out of easy reach for mz enthusiests both new and experianced . I feel its a Major Develpment addressing a age old obstacle in muzzleloader ownership . And it WORKS !!!
---- Sideshow.......

Please read and consider the original thread -- first ......Then -- return here and ----

Please feel free to leave your comments , and dont forget to vote !!!

 

[toytruck]

Lewis said it's basically liquid teflon tape. I like that for sure! I have been using teflon grease for years with no problems with a stuck plug or nipple so a liquid form of teflon has to be great too!

 

[bdog]

i vote....yep

 

[Sideshow]

Lewis said it's basically liquid teflon tape. I like that for sure! I have been using teflon grease for years with no problems with a stuck plug or nipple so a liquid form of teflon has to be great too!

I think he is just Amazed at how nice it works . Holy Black is a special breed of frustration on threads . T7 as well . Im looking forward to that Bighorn he spoke of thats Notorious for stuck plugs . I Got the Cure .

 

[Sideshow]

i vote....yep

Thanks bdog

 

[sabotloader]

I think he is just Amazed at how nice it works . Holy Black is a special breed of frustration on threads . T7 as well . Im looking forward to that Bighorn he spoke of thats Natorious for stuck plugs . I Got the Cure .

I guess I am not sure why you picked out the Bighorn.... I have shot Bighorns, MK's, and Wolverines for several years using 120 grain loads of T7. I am a Teflon tape user - have been for several years. I really do not even worry about seized BP's anymore. Granted... there is a learning curve to getting it right. But once you have it - you have it! And it is easy and clean.

 

[Sideshow]

I guess I am not sure why you picked out the Bighorn.... I have shot Bighorns, MK's, and Wolverines for several years using 120 grain loads of T7. I am a Teflon tape user - have been for several years. I really do not even worry about seized BP's anymore. Granted... there is a learning curve to getting it right. But once you have it - you have it! And it is easy and clean.

Idaholewis has a friend that shoots black in his bighorn that He Says is Notorious for getting stuck BAD , REALLY BAD . Nothing has worked reliably so far . Nothing . Im not afraid of that challenge . I got the CURE !!!
(Idaholewis mentions this Particular rifle in "ENDS THE STUCK BREECH PLUG BLUES " post #53 , this is Not an attack on any rifle . Ok ?? Ok !! )

Nothing against Knight . Its THAT One i want to see fixed ---FOR GOOD !!!!

What ive laid out truly is THE answer . And the way to do it reliably , cheaply , and forevermore !!!!

Anything more just read that thread . Its truth is undenyable . Its stood the test of time to the tune of nearly 3 decades of exclusive constant use includeing all black and subs . This includes nipples too .No Wa-Naids Allowed . Its a "System" for sucess .

. It IS the BEST !!!...

 

[Idaholewis]

It’s not just the Bighorn of my Friends, it is EVERY inline Muzzleloader i have owned, or Shot. That includes The Knight Mountaineer, Knight Bighorn, Knight MK-85, and White Super 91, They ALL will Seize up tight, and Be DIFFICULT to Remove When shooting Real Blackpowder, and the Few times i have Shot Triple Seven (Mainly with Chet, 1874Sharpsshooter) He warned me the Plugs would be Tight, and He was ABSOLUTELY Correct. This is With GREASED Breech Plugs, No doubt the Grease Helps SUBSTANTIALLY, But Fact is they will Stil Seize up and be DIFFICULT to Remove. I simply mentioned my Friends Bighorn as I don’t even Own an inline anymore, I can grab his Rifle anytime i wanted and Test this Teflon Anti-Seize. I have no doubt this Stuff will Work, Just like it has with the Nipples in my Sidelocks

I agree with Sabotloader on the Teflon Tape on Breech Plugs, When it works, it works well. But when it Fails, it Fails Quite well to! I had it happen, And is precisely why i chose to Stop using Teflon Tape, and start using Grease. The Problem i have with the Teflon Tape is Not Knowing if you “Nicked” the Nose (Sealing edge) of the Plug as you were installing it? You simply do NOT know if you Got a Good Seal or not? All you can do is Hope, and I didn’t like that! I understood the Teflon Tape method Well, and like i said, when it worked it worked well, But when it Failed You had a SEIZED Plug on your Hands

Here is a Breech plug I Teflon Taped, as you can clearly see i had a GOOD seal on this one

But more often than not, i found myself RIGHT HERE after a Shooting Session, Especially anything over 8-10 Shots, and the 20 Plus Shots i took with my Mountaineer were GUARANTEED to Be SEIZED Up TIGHT, EVEN Though i had the Breech Plugs COMPLETELY Covered in Grease before Shooting.

I literally made this Setup SPECIFICALLY for Removing Seized Breech Plugs

All i can say about this Permatex Thread Sealant #80632 is that it WORKS, and it works REALLY REALLY well, unlike ANYTHING else i have ever Seen? Breech Plug Grease isn’t even Close! I have no Doubt this Stuff Would Work extremely well on Breech Plugs, As it has on the Nipples in my Sidelocks, They can be Removed with my Fingers after breaking them loose, that was NEVER EVER the Case with Breech Plug Grease, and the Regular Anti-Seize I commonly used, I had to keep a Wrench on ALL the Way out. This Teflon Anti-Seize #80632 is TOTALLY Different Stuff

The Key would be Coating the Surfaces the Red Arrows are Pointing at, That front Sealing edge is EXTREMELY important! Some folks think the Threads are All that is needed Coating? WRONG!! You want a Good Coating where the Red Arrows are Pointing, as well as the Threads

The only downside i can think of? Is folks that Fear the Thought of Teflon getting in their Barrel, This Stuff is similar to Grease, in that it could be somewhat Messy, The chances of you getting some of this in your Barrel (Breech end of Course) Running a Breech Plug in Is HIGHLY Probable (Depends on how Careless you are?) I notice this Stuff REALLY Sticks to the Nipple Threads, and requires a Little more effort to Clean it off than Grease, This is No doubt why it works So well. For Nipple threads in my Sidelock Muzzleloaders, i feel this Stuff is AWESOME!! And if i stil owned an inline, i would NO DOUBT use this.

 

[Sideshow]

It’s not just the Bighorn of my Friends, it is EVERY inline Muzzleloader i have owned, or Shot. That includes The Knight Mountaineer, Knight Bighorn, Knight MK-85, and White Super 91, They ALL will Seize up tight, and Be DIFFICULT to Remove When shooting Real Blackpowder, and the Few times i have Shot Triple Seven (Mainly with Chet, 1874Sharpsshooter) He warned me the Plugs would be Tight, and He was ABSOLUTELY Correct. This is With GREASED Breech Plugs, No doubt the Grease Helps SUBSTANTIALLY, But Fact is they will Stil Seize up and be DIFFICULT to Remove. I simply mentioned my Friends Bighorn as I don’t even Own an inline anymore, I can grab his Rifle anytime i wanted and Test this Teflon Anti-Seize. I have no doubt this Stuff will Work, Just like it has with the Nipples in my Sidelocks

I agree with Sabotloader on the Teflon Tape on Breech Plugs, When it works, it works well. But when it Fails, it Fails Quite well to! I had it happen, And is precisely why i chose to Stop using Teflon Tape, and start using Grease. The Problem i have with the Teflon Tape is Not Knowing if you “Nicked” the Nose (Sealing edge) of the Plug as you were installing it? You simply do NOT know if you Got a Good Seal or not? All you can do is Hope, and I didn’t like that! I understood the Teflon Tape method Well, and like i said, when it worked it worked well, But when it Failed You had a SEIZED Plug on your Hands

Here is a Breech plug I Teflon Taped, as you can clearly see i had a GOOD seal on this one

But more often than not, i found myself RIGHT HERE after a Shooting Session, Especially anything over 8-10 Shots, and the 20 Plus Shots i took with my Mountaineer were GUARANTEED to Be SEIZED Up TIGHT, EVEN Though i had the Breech Plugs COMPLETELY Covered in Grease before Shooting.

I literally made this Setup SPECIFICALLY for Removing Seized Breech Plugs

All i can say about this Permatex Thread Sealant #80632 is that it WORKS, and it works REALLY REALLY well, unlike ANYTHING else i have ever Seen? Breech Plug Grease isn’t even Close! I have no Doubt this Stuff Would Work extremely well on Breech Plugs, As it has on the Nipples in my Sidelocks, They can be Removed with my Fingers after breaking them loose, that was NEVER EVER the Case with Breech Plug Grease, and the Regular Anti-Seize I commonly used, I had to keep a Wrench on ALL the Way out. This Teflon Anti-Seize #80632 is TOTALLY Different Stuff

The Key would be Coating the Surfaces the Red Arrows are Pointing at, That front Sealing edge is EXTREMELY important! Some folks think the Threads are All that is needed Coating? WRONG!! You want a Good Coating where the Red Arrows are Pointing, as well as the Threads

The only downside i can think of? Is folks that Fear the Thought of Teflon getting in their Barrel, This Stuff is similar to Grease, in that it could be somewhat Messy, The chances of you getting some of this in your Barrel (Breech end of Course) Running a Breech Plug in Is HIGHLY Probable (Depends on how Careless you are?) I notice this Stuff REALLY Sticks to the Nipple Threads, and requires a Little more effort to Clean it off than Grease, This is No doubt why it works So well. For Nipple threads in my Sidelock Muzzleloaders, i feel this Stuff is AWESOME!! And if i stil owned an inline, i would NO DOUBT use this.

The real answer is for around 30 yrs ive about "perfected" this "system" ive shared in the thread "ENDS THE STUCK BREECH PLUG BLUES".
Make No Mistake it IS a system .
I offered no short cuts , no "Wa-Naids" to make this work .

IF the PRIMARY SEAL is Not lapped in YOU have Not done a Complete Job . PERIOD !!!
That Seal between breech plug And barrel MUST be Ground In , Lapped In , made Perfect As Can be Done . To honestly believe that anything other than a Perfect Mating Surface of barrel And plug -- solid and under slight torqued tension , is ludicrus at best .
THAT IS THE PRIMARY SEAL. PERIOD .
Under Far Less Pressure --do the valves in your vehicle have gaskets where they meet the valve seats ?? NO . Only a ground in , lapped in area .050 to .060 " area of circumference . It Seals on . Thats it .
The rings dont have gaskets either .
Why Insist on one There , bp to barrel ?? NONSENSE . Why Cut Corners and RELY on something that has NO STRENGTH to hold Tens of Thousands of pounds of pressure ???
That , is foolish . Sorry but indeed so . Besides the First thing a gasket Truly needs to be effective and reliable is Even Constant Pressure , Constant Thickness where it is Sealing . This , is how it works . No other way reliablely .
It IS NOT THERE FROM THE FACTORY ON THESE GUNS . To thnk what is truly needed is already there is Fantasy . . Sorry but so . And no wa-naid is gonna fix that either . Why fight THE CORRECT WAY ??? WIll the Permatex Thread Sealant ,or tape Allow you to Get Away With it ??? I can tell you for a FACT that the SEALANT does A Much Better Job of It Than The Tape . No Contest . It will ALWAYS COME LOOSE . You cant claim that . Dont even try . I Know Better .

There is nothing Selfish within wanting to support MY REASON for this allegiance to Permatex's product . Only results and the results of this "systems" sealing . Better is NOT in common use . Anywhere .

The Permatex THREAD SEALANT is overkill And a Backup for a Properly Seated Plug to Barrel seal . Because its THE BEST AVAILABLE to do so . Its also the Best on a nipple bar none . You have now found this out .
Listen , just do as ive directed and see that what ive GIVEN Works . I dont want to argue , you Wont Win . I KNOW what im doing and on a simple nipple its dam near unbelieveable to ya . Geez , did you guys Really Think im Gonna put out abunch of lame bs out there ?? Come On !!! This is a gold nugget if there ever was one . Its 4:34 am and im going to bed . Ttyl .....

 

[Doccbst1]

Yes, this should be a sticky. Great info.
I was actually thinking this when I opened the MML page for another browsing/learning adventure about muzzleloaders.
I'm considering this process on my new Accura. I've always used Teflon tape and never had a problem but this would be a more permanent solution.
Grease is too messy and to me attracts dirt, carbon, powder, sludge, things I'll have to clean later.
Thanks for the idea Sideshow.

 

[ronlaughlin]

I'm considering this process on my new Accura

It isn't necessary. Newer CVA rifles are sent from the factory with breech plugs 'married' to the barrel. If you purchase a new breech plug, it comes with a tool one uses to marry the plug to the barrel. Here are the instructions included with the breech plug.

 

[Sideshow]

G-morning . Lordy im tired . This whole subject is wearing me out . My nature is honestly Not to be crabby either .

Thanks for the support for the folks that want this as a sticky . I do too . For us and future muzzleloaders .

For those that dont i honestly cant imagine why . Its needed . For this inline problem thats been around forever No One Else has truly had a solution . No more wa-naids , a solution . Only a rear sealing plug and believe me , with black and subs we'd crud them up too !!! The permatex would be the only hope for that .

I dont know what you do for a living .
I constantly must either expand on a given design or come up with a better one . Thats what i do . Nothing is sacred . Only the laws of physics themselves . No ive always done it this way is allowed . Pretty goods dont cut it , solutions do .

This was a gift to All muzzleloaders . A simple fix for now and generations to come .

It does the job and does it correctly . In nearly every aspect that it can face . I know it works . I dont need the glory of that . I already have national championships stacked like cord wood in my field . And i dont dust those trophys or plaques either . I already know who and what i am .

Whether or not you want to help yourself or the next guy is on you . Ive done my part here . This isnt about a personal agenda nor ego .

Whether this petition sinks or swims rests on you . I put it there . Me alone . Lets just see what you got and what motives Are there . .....And thats honest .

 

[Sideshow]

It isn't necessary. Newer CVA rifles are sent from the factory with breech plugs 'married' to the barrel. If you purchase a new breech plug, it comes with a tool one uses to marry the plug to the barrel. Here are the instructions included with the breech plug.

Good for CVA . They realize that this primary seal is a problem and took steps to address it . Highly Commendable on their part . Its about time Somebody Did Something on Their end of it . Thanks Ron .

 

[ENCORE50A]

I would suggest it be under Product Reviews if it were to become a sticky.

Never had a stuck breech plug or nipple when I was shooting percussion rifles. Now for someone that might want to jump on that statement, the UF breech plug did not stick. Its original design was to wedge itself in the barrel.

 

[Sideshow]

I would suggest it be under Product Reviews if it were to become a sticky.

Never had a stuck breech plug or nipple when I was shooting percussion rifles. Now for someone that might want to jump on that statement, the UF breech plug did not stick. Its original design was to wedge itself in the barrel.

Wherever it goes it needs to BE . i really dont consider this solely as a product . Its a DIY System modification/tuning , not Only a product . Quite a difference . Thanks for your input however . Always welcome .

 

[Doccbst1]

It isn't necessary. Newer CVA rifles are sent from the factory with breech plugs 'married' to the barrel. If you purchase a new breech plug, it comes with a tool one uses to marry the plug to the barrel. Here are the instructions included with the breech plug.

Yes I knew about this procedure but does this prevent the possibility of a stuck breech plug? CVA still says to use breech plug "grease" or anti-seize. I've never used grease but still have to do what's best for the rifle.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Sticky - yes.

 

[MrTom]

Yes, this should be a sticky. Great info.
I was actually thinking this when I opened the MML page for another browsing/learning adventure about muzzleloaders.
I'm considering this process on my new Accura. I've always used Teflon tape and never had a problem but this would be a more permanent solution.
Grease is too messy and to me attracts dirt, carbon, powder, sludge, things I'll have to clean later.
Thanks for the idea Sideshow.

As Ron mentioned, you do not need to do this with most newer CVA guns. I have a bunch of CVA guns and do nothing more than screw the plug in by hand snuggly and go shoot. No leakage and not one stuck plug ever. A couple of these guns have prehaps 700 rounds thru the plugs with no eveidence of flame cutting at the face of the plugs, but the plugs have been drilled and tapped to accept vent liners. The vent liners have zero to do with flame cutting at the barrel/breech plug are but do have a lot to do with how many shots a breech plug can tolerate before the factory flame hole gets burned out....hence the replaceable vent liner. Much cheaper than a new plug.

When you clean your gun make certain the face of the breech plug is debris free as well as the face of the barrel when you re-install the plug.

A couple of these guns saw T7 pellet before I bought them and even then the plugs came right out by hand. All of these guns I have refered to are now converted to BH209 use exclusively and again I have zero issues with a stuck plug in any of them. I'm inclined to think that stuck plugs are an issue with certain brands of firearms rather than a universally dealt with issue regarding ALL breed plugs. Teflon tape can do a world of good if one feels he needs to seal the plug in some guns but CVA guns since 2010 are seldom in need of even that and a couple of my guns made prior to 2010 require nothing on the threads as they seal completely and will come right out even after standing after firing a few days. I feel the less of anything one puts on the threads is the best practice but everyone has to make their own decisions. In my world there is no one size fits all type of fix for anything. With CVA products the less you do is your best bet. CVA plugs are cheap. If you feel that one isn't sealing well, replace it. You'll be happier not having to clean stuff from the plug's threads or the threads in the receiver end. .

If you are going to do this permatex thing to a new CVA gun you maybe should be contracting CVA and ask about warranty issues first.

 

[Idaholewis]

I am Talking Real Blackpowder, and a Few Triple Seven Outings. Here are the 3 Products i have hands on experience with, To this Day I have never had a Nipple or Breech Plug that I Couldn’t Remove, But they Required Quite a Bit of Elbow Grease! Of course The more i shot, the Tougher they were to Remove. The times i Shot 20 Plus Times, they Required a LOT of Elbow Grease! Along with my Steam Cleaner, Blasting them REALLY Hot to Help break them Free.

This Stuff on the other hand makes Nipple Removal near Effortless, I can literally Remove the Nipples in my Percussion Sidelocks with my Fingers After Shooting with Real Blackpowder, Something that was IMPOSSIBLE with The above 3 products. They are NOT EVEN CLOSE to this stuff. All i am Saying is this Stuff REALLY Does Work, unlike ANYTHING else i have seen. As a PRODUCT REVIEW This stuff is AWESOME!!

 

[Doccbst1]

As Ron mentioned, you do not need to do this with most newer CVA guns. I have a bunch of CVA guns and do nothing more than screw the plug in by hand snuggly and go shoot. No leakage and not one stuck plug ever. A couple of these guns have prehaps 700 rounds thru the plugs with no eveidence of flame cutting at the face of the plugs, but the plugs have been drilled and tapped to accept vent liners. The vent liners have zero to do with flame cutting at the barrel/breech plug are but do have a lot to do with how many shots a breech plug can tolerate before the factory flame hole gets burned out....hence the replaceable vent liner. Much cheaper than a new plug.

When you clean your gun make certain the face of the breech plug is debris free as well as the face of the barrel when you re-install the plug.

A couple of these guns saw T7 pellet before I bought them and even then the plugs came right out by hand. All of these guns I have refered to are now converted to BH209 use exclusively and again I have zero issues with a stuck plug in any of them. I'm inclined to think that stuck plugs are an issue with certain brands of firearms rather than a universally dealt with issue regarding ALL breed plugs. Teflon tape can do a world of good if one feels he needs to seal the plug in some guns but CVA guns since 2010 are seldom in need of even that and a couple of my guns made prior to 2010 require nothing on the threads as they seal completely and will come right out even after standing after firing a few days. I feel the less of anything one puts on the threads is the best practice but everyone has to make their own decisions. In my world there is no one size fits all type of fix for anything. With CVA products the less you do is your best bet. CVA plugs are cheap. If you feel that one isn't sealing well, replace it. You'll be happier not having to clean stuff from the plug's threads or the threads in the receiver end. .

If you are going to do this permatex thing to a new CVA gun you maybe should be contracting CVA and ask about warranty issues first.

After reading you reply and Ron's the best question I can ask is what's the best less troublesome breech plug grease, anti-seize product I should use ? I have a machinist background so if the surfaces are truly married there is little chance of any debris getting in the threads. The grease shipped with the rifle looks pretty decent but mine was shipped with the standard plug installed. They sent me the Blackhorn plug free as it was listed on the page where I ordered but I haven't installed it yet. I do like to take my time and get things right the first time.
Thanks for advice.