Things i would like to see or see improved

[GM54-120]

I really like my 45s but with the lack of interest in the 10mm and 40cal wildcats has made the bullet selection a bit stagnant or way over priced for ML specific versions.

I would love to see a 40-220gr to 230gr SST or Barnes.

A 45x.410 sabot might also be interesting even though bullet weight is limited.

50x40 sabots are limited to two choices and IMO both could use some improvement. A powder cup design similar to a Knight 52cal sabot "might" just do the trick. I have already mentioned this to Del at MMP. Hornady offers a 300gr made for the old 405 Winchester which would be an awesome bullet in the correct sabot and twist.

I would love to see a 50x40 sabot that works better with both traditional subs and....well you know...faster speeds too.

40cal PRB barrels are not too uncommon but what IF.....someone made a 40cal for use with sabots. 40X3xx sabots could have a huge range of bullets from plinkers to big game rifle application bullets. Im betting they would sell better than the MMP 36cal sabots.

I would love to see a 40cal made to shoot 180-200gr .357 and .358 bullets at least in the 2200fps+ range.

A few misc. wants.

Speer ML specific GD/DCs with a tip for a bit more BC. A .452 275gr GD would be nice too.

Affordable hardcast versions of popular pointy ML bullets for practice or even dedicated hardcast pointy long range bullets made for sabot use. I love target shooting but the cost of the bullets could easily be lowered this way.

A nice 45cal carbine with a 1-24 to a 1-26 twist. Preferably based on a DISC type action or a steel frame break action.

A Knight based 54cal with a 1-24 twist too. According to "someone" Knight did make a prototype and he has one of them.

Im sure i can think of a few more but thats a start.

 

[Semisane]

A nice 45cal carbine with a 1-24 to a 1-26 twist. Preferably based on a DISC type action or a steel frame break action.

You got me with that one GM54. I'd send my money today for the first .45 1:24 twist Omega X7 that comes off the assembly line.

 

[GM54-120]

OH YEAH!!!!!

I forgot about making a 45cal X7. That would be awesome. Preferably with no QLA.

 

[Bill V]

I would like more choices in a 54/50 sabot. Perhaps, MMP could make a "high pressure" version or, at least make the sabot furnished with the Barnes 54cal M/Z available in bulk. How about a crushed rib in 54/50? Oh yeah!

Bill V

 

[Mountainam]

Bill V, Did you ever have an MMP54x50 sabot fail with subs?? I use them with smokeless and have yet to have one fail in my rifle. 325gr MZ clocks at 2200fps. They shoot very accurately.

 

[flounder]

I would like to see gun manufacturers be less concerned about trying to create a "clean" muzzleloader and instead put their emphasis on barrel quality and the type of simple and strong construction seen in guns a couple of decades ago. Guns with integrity built to be accurate and to last a lifetime or three.

 

[Hornet22savage]

You know I have thought of trying the 405 winchester from my 50 in a Harvester CR 40X50. My bore is kind of large they might just load. The bullet is actually a .411 and at 300 gr. is quite long

 

[Bill V]

54/50 Sabot

Mountainam,

I have had a few failures with the MMP 54/50 in purple. Usually, one or two petals separated but on ocassion, only the cup was found. Those were with Barnes 275 and 325 gr MZs with hot charges of T7 and BH 209. Not so common with the red sabot currently supplied with the Barnes MZ. All of the failures are in 100 degress and above which is our temps about 6 months of the year.

I am shooting them in a Knight MK85 and all .500 bullets are difficult to load. I just don't think there are enough 54 cal shooters that MMP or Harvester will offer any additional options.

2200fps with a 325 MZ! That is hauling.

Bill V

 

[GM54-120]

You know I have thought of trying the 405 winchester from my 50 in a Harvester CR 40X50. My bore is kind of large they might just load. The bullet is actually a .411 and at 300 gr. is quite long

Ive tried a 260gr i had re-sized in a Harvester CR 50x40 and blew several or they key holed in a 1-28 50cal. I haven't tried one in my Savage (1-24) but thats a thought. A 40cal that heavy either needs a pretty fast twist or a lot of fps to stabilize.....probably about 1-22 at max sub speeds would be my guess.

Mountainam

Ive blown a few of the MMP purples with 120 BH209 and usually with the Rem 385gr CLHP. A couple also failed with the Knight/Barnes 50-325gr. Not one red Barnes version with the slightly different powder cup has failed though. There are two versions of the Barnes also, one looks exactly like a MMP purple. I did talk to Del about them and he said he does make a tougher one for Barnes. He may have switched all of them to the HPH polymer now since Barnes only had a exclusive on the mold and not the plastic formula.

 

[ronlaughlin]

I would like to see manufacturers sell unfinished breech plugs i.e. a solid threaded blank with the hex and/or knurling cut and no work done on the center. This would allow one to make a primer pocket to fit the primer of choice to the rifle of choice. This would allow one to install a vent liner at any location and the size of one's choosing. This would allow one to choose the size of the flash hole, and the size of the flame channel.

Along the same lines, it would be nice if all primers were the same length. Perhaps it is better they aren't, so one can be chosen, to fit one's individual rifle.

 

[sbuff]

I would like to see prices of powder and bullets come down some.

From a Gun perspcective I would like to see TC bring back the X7,I have one and don't think they were produced very long.Alot of people missed out on getting a next to perfect ML.

Also have NEF/H&R bring back their muzzle loader line,they shoot anything you can get down the barrel with great results.

Steve

 

[fisher1]

I've often thought that a 209 primer with a large rifle primer mix instead of the dirty shotshell mix would solve alot of issues. Seems like Western Powders could push one of the mfr's for somthing like this.

 

[Busta]

I really like my 45s but with the lack of interest in the 10mm and 40cal wildcats has made the bullet selection a bit stagnant or way over priced for ML specific versions.

I would love to see a 40-220gr to 230gr SST or Barnes.
...................................

I'm with you on a 40 caliber Barnes or any other bullet in this range. Over on Doug's board they have an experimental 240 gr monolithic (all copper) bullet that they have been having a hard time getting stabilized. They are trying to get this bullet to shoot in the smokeless rifles, so I don't think they take any BH209 input very serious. I know I have had some of the exact "sabot drilling" and sabot failure that they are experiencing with smokeless shooting BH209, especially while experimenting with the PR .45/.357 orange sabots and the .358 gr hornady FTX. I personally think the current sabots are a big part of the problem, and the limiting factor for bullet length/weight. I have a few of the White Power Star (old Shooting Star) 350 gr swadged lead saboted bullets and sabots, they have always shot "lights out" in 3 of my 1:20 twist .45 caliber rifles (White, Knight, Custom H&R). I have made a couple post's with my thoughts, but since White is not "really" in business anymore, getting these sabots may be a futile attempt. I understand that they are available as saboted bullet on a limited basis.

Below is one of my post's with pictures of current .45/.40 sabots, note how the 195 gr Barnes sits in the White Sabot, compared to all the other offerings. This sabot has a very shallow powder cup and has walls and petals like the current Barnes TMZ sabots, where there is a solid cup section below the petals. I feel this feature is "KEY" to getting good sabot performance in the faster twist 1:20 rifle at top end BH209, and especially smokeless velocities. IMO, the faster velocities in the faster twist rifles is when this sabot "drilling" occurs with sabots where the petals go all the way to the base of the bullet. It is no big secret that a bullet obturates more at the spanked end, and especially true with the monolithic types. This twists the petals and the integrity of the sabot is then compromised. This has never happened with the White Sabots (1:20 twist .45's or 1:24 twist .504 cal) or Barnes TMZ (yellow) sabot in my rifles.

Here are some of my thoughts on this from that post, and I have fired sabots that I can take pics of that will back up my theory, at least in my mind.

The White Shooting Star/Power Star .45/.40 sabot might be just what this bullet needs to prove it out. This sabot has a very shallow base cup, and holds up better than any .45 caliber sabot I have ever shot. And this is with a 350 gr swadged lead bullet.

Here are some pictures of the sabot, and bullet.

Here is the saboted bullet along with a 195 gr barnes sitting in the center White tan sabot. Notice how much lower the bullet sits in this sabot compared to the MMP tan supplied Barnes.

Here are some .45/.40 sabots with a Barnes 195 sitting in them for comparison. L-R; White Power Star tan, MMP/Barnes tan, Harvester Smooth Blue, Harvester Crush Rib blue, Knight High Pressure brown, T/C Super 45 XR green. Notice again how the bullet sits in the White tan sabot.

Here are some common, and one not so common .40 caliber bullets. All of thes stabilize fairly well in my 1:20 twist rifles, except for the 155 and 180 gr, they need much reduced loads. L-R; White 350 gr Shooting Star/Power Star, Hornady 200 gr SST, T/C 200 gr Shockwave, Barnes 195 gr Expander MZ, Hornady 200 gr XTP, Hornady 180 gr XTP, Hornady 155 gr XTP.

I would also like to add to what greenhorn said about the center of gravity being much further back on the Parker bullet. I feel this along with the thin jacket/lead core greatly adds to it's stability, even though the bearing surface is shorter than most. L-R; Hornady 200 gr .358" FTX in PR Sabot, Barnes 195 gr in tan MMP/Barnes Sabot, Traditions APB100 badged 275 gr Parker Ballistic Extreme in black 3 petal sabot.

I don't know the availability of the White tan sabot, and my supply is very limited at the moment. I don't even know who may hold the mold to this sabot, or who actually made them for White. I do know that DOC designed this boat tail sabot to be very tough for the 350 gr bullets which have a boat tail design as well. The rounded radius on the base of the Barnes Expander MZ, SST, and Shockwave bullets also seem to sit down flush in the internal base, although I have not shot any of these bullets in the White tan sabot. A truely flat based bullet will not work well in this sabot IMO.

 

[Raghorn]

If there is one thing I would like to see, it?s consistency in muzzeloader BORE DIAMETERS.

It?s ridicules that you can buy three different .50 caliber muzzeloaders, and have the same bullet be way too loose in one, just right in another, and too tight to even force down the barrel of the third.

Imagine if center fires were made like this ?

 

[Brute]

+1 on the more consistent bore diameters. They are a joke compared to centerfires. :evil:

 

[Lee 9]

Hornet22savage
It works for some of us. I like the 41 caliber 210 gr bullet and my bore is .501 on the Endeavor it works on, the .498 bore on my Triumph is to tight.

 

[GM54-120]

Busta

The current attempt at a high BC monolithic bullet on Dougs to me has one tiny flaw in the development process.

Start with what you know works FIRST. In other words just start out with a 220gr version of the Barnes and get it to shoot well first before trying to make huge increases in the BC. Mimic its design but heavier and the extra 10% mass will increase your SD. BC is partially calculated at a given fps and SD, so improve the SD first with a known good ogive profile and get it shooting well...then move on.

10% increase in mass doesn't sound like much but if you run it through a ballistics program the gains are worthwhile IMO and it should also work well in sub guns. Since current sabot options are limited, this should make it easier to obtain their goals.

I love those White 45x40 sabots. I would bet if the "bullet cup" would take a typical non BT 40cal they would work awesome in many guns with slightly heavier 40cals. Doc knew his stuff and made everything pretty tough. Those are the kind of bullets i would love to try in a faster twist 45cal carbine.

 

[derfhunter]

Lee,
What 41 bullet do you use.
I have tried a few including the 210 gr xtp, sierria and remington bullets, all in 210 gr.
The xtp's have the best for accuracy so far.
I finally found some gold dots and noslers which I have coming in the next few days. I can't wait to try these out.

Fred

 

[sabotloader]

If there is one thing I would like to see, it?s consistency in muzzeloader BORE DIAMETERS.

It?s ridicules that you can buy three different .50 caliber muzzeloaders, and have the same bullet be way too loose in one, just right in another, and too tight to even force down the barrel of the third.

Imagine if center fires were made like this ?

Just remember that centerfire bores have to conform to SAAMI Specifications. It requires time and monitoring to meat SAAMI not to mention very good equipment.

This is not to say that ML manufacturers could not meet the same specs.. but if they were required to do that you will be digging much deeper into your pockets to pay for it. Bet it would come close to $100 per gun if not more...

 

[Mountainam]

Busta, I tried to do a lot of work with the PR bullet .45x.358 sabot and it worked well with stiff sub loads. But with smokeless, it gets drilled. I don't know if your familiar with the .06 Rule we have on the other board or not. But since BH209 IS a smokeless--- just a really bad one, it may apply to BH also. If the sabot /bullet relationship is over .06" then they are prone to drilling. I.E. 45x35 = .10"; .50x.44=.06" . Even if someone made a .45x.375 it would be prone to drilling because it is .075" and violates the Rule. I got tremendously accurate loads with a Hornady .430 265gr FTX in my .50 10ML, but the third shot would drill making it undependable. The only caliber that seems to be immune to the .06" Rule is my .54 700ML I've NEVER drilled a Harvester .54x.45 even with a Duplex Smokeless load. The petals are NEVER intact, but the bullets are cloverleafed even at 200yds. Whether the petals are missing or not when found on the ground means nothing. And I don't believe that too quick a twist is detrimental for accuracy. Guys are getting great groups with .45x.40 saboted loads that their barrels are sporting 1/18" and 1/16" twists on the other board. I'm guessing the .40 cal 240gr is drilling due to lack of sabot material toughness or not using a slow enough burning powder. I agree with GM120-54 , a 220 gr bullet is where they will end up when it's over.