Ultra-Lite Bolt Sticking- Primer issue?

[4gun-drill]

Just took my new UL to the range for the first time. Fired a few primers to foul the bore and experienced no issues. However, after my first shot the bolt was locked up pretty good. I only fired 10 shots and I had this issue on 8 or 9 shots. I can lift the bolt handle but I cannot retract the handle to remove the primer. I have tried to research this and it sounds like a stuck primer, but I'm not convinced that it is. If I put a new, unfired primer in the action there are no issues cycling the action. However, if I re-insert a used primer, it will lock up again. It has to be primer related (I think) but here is why I don't think it is a "stuck" primer issue. The primers (new or used) can be easily seated by hand in the breechplug. Also, when the bolt is stuck, if I place the butt on the bench with barrel pointed up, I can see a small amount of movement of the primer within the plug. Additionally, if I pull out the detent, the bolt will slide out freely with just its own weight. However, sometimes the detent itself is difficult to retract too. The primer is not stuck on bolt face either as once the bolt is removed the primer will fall right out.

Any ideas?

Primers (W-209) seem to headspace ok but I'm not getting much crush (.001 or so). There is only a small amount of soot on side of primer. Nothing leaking past.

I'm shooting 100gr by vol of BH209, W-209 primers, and 300gr SST.

Though I don't know what the issue is, I will send Bestill an email and order one of his plugs. I would like a removeable vent liner anyway.

The good news is the rifle shoots great!

 

[ShawnT]

Bestills plug does not have a removable ventliner. It has a Tungsten Carbide insert that is loctited in. It is a fantastic plug, I have one in mine. You will either need to provide him the measurement to get the right size or send the rifle to him for proper measuring/fit. He will let you know what is needed. You will not be disappointed with his plug.

Any soot on the sides of the primer indicates some leakage. It sounds like the head space is still a bit long even with the Win 209s. Should be a minimum of .002 to .003. If there was no leakage you would only see a black ring of soot around the flash hole of the primer and none on the sides at all. Were those the only shots you have taken in the rifle since you got it? If not have you cleaned the Flash Channel with a Drill bit? If it took 8 to 9 shots before it started to "Stick" it may be a build up of soot on the side walls of the primer pocket. Try cleaning the primer pocket out good and see if you can fire a few shots with ok extraction then.

When you say the Detent (Bolt Release) is hard to sometimes pull out is that with the bolt unlocked or locked in. How does the bolt feel when closing without a primer and with one?

 

[4gun-drill]

ShawnT,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the info.

I must have Bestill confused with another forum member that made some plugs for me in the past. I will have to look through some emails and see who that was. However, I will be in Bestill's neck of the woods next month so maybe I can stop,by and see him.

This was the first time I had ever fired this rifle and it locked up after the first shot. I only fired 10 total and it happened on 8 or 9 of those shots. Primer pocket is clean and primers will easily seat by hand. I do need to put a drill bit in my range bag though.

The bolt release works as designed so long as the bolt is not stuck / locked up. When the bolt was stuck, I noticed several times that the release was difficult to retract. I don't recall if this was with the handle up or down. That is a great question though and I will have to pay more attention next time.

 

[sabotloader]

ShawnT,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the info.

I must have Bestill confused with another forum member that made some plugs for me in the past. I will have to look through some emails and see who that was. However, I will be in Bestill's neck of the woods next month so maybe I can stop,by and see him.

This was the first time I had ever fired this rifle and it locked up after the first shot. I only fired 10 total and it happened on 8 or 9 of those shots. Primer pocket is clean and primers will easily seat by hand. I do need to put a drill bit in my range bag though.

The bolt release works as designed so long as the bolt is not stuck / locked up. When the bolt was stuck, I noticed several times that the release was difficult to retract. I don't recall if this was with the handle up or down. That is a great question though and I will have to pay more attention next time.

Just really guessing at this point but it sounds like the diameter of the primer pocket in the BP is constricted. If I remember correctly there was a small batch of BP that when they were heat treated the primer pocket constricted.

There is an individual that is selling the older original Lehigh Breech plug and adapter but I can not remember the name or email address...

Found it... email Buddy

[email protected]>

 

[WV Hunter]

ShawnT,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the info.

I must have Bestill confused with another forum member that made some plugs for me in the past. I will have to look through some emails and see who that was. However, I will be in Bestill's neck of the woods next month so maybe I can stop,by and see him.

This was the first time I had ever fired this rifle and it locked up after the first shot. I only fired 10 total and it happened on 8 or 9 of those shots. Primer pocket is clean and primers will easily seat by hand. I do need to put a drill bit in my range bag though.

The bolt release works as designed so long as the bolt is not stuck / locked up. When the bolt was stuck, I noticed several times that the release was difficult to retract. I don't recall if this was with the handle up or down. That is a great question though and I will have to pay more attention next time.

Just really guessing at this point but it sounds like the diameter of the primer pocket in the BP is constricted. If I remember correctly there was a small batch of BP that when they were heat treated the primer pocket constricted.

There is an individual that is selling the older original Lehigh Breech plug and adapter but I can not remember the name or email address...

Found it... email Buddy

[email protected]>

SL, I'm pretty sure was only selling plugs that fit the DISC rifles, not UL/Mountaineer.

I wonder if you could polish the factory plug pocket? Maybe with some polishing compound on a drill? ?

Assuming there is blowby maybe the headspacing is incorrect and that is the main issue? Shims? I don't know, just brainstorming.

Brand new, I'd probably be calling Knight as well.... I know others have had issues and Knight resolved them - albeit not real quick in some cases.

 

[sabotloader]

ShawnT,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the info.

I must have Bestill confused with another forum member that made some plugs for me in the past. I will have to look through some emails and see who that was. However, I will be in Bestill's neck of the woods next month so maybe I can stop,by and see him.

This was the first time I had ever fired this rifle and it locked up after the first shot. I only fired 10 total and it happened on 8 or 9 of those shots. Primer pocket is clean and primers will easily seat by hand. I do need to put a drill bit in my range bag though.

The bolt release works as designed so long as the bolt is not stuck / locked up. When the bolt was stuck, I noticed several times that the release was difficult to retract. I don't recall if this was with the handle up or down. That is a great question though and I will have to pay more attention next time.

Just really guessing at this point but it sounds like the diameter of the primer pocket in the BP is constricted. If I remember correctly there was a small batch of BP that when they were heat treated the primer pocket constricted.

There is an individual that is selling the older original Lehigh Breech plug and adapter but I can not remember the name or email address...

Found it... email Buddy

[email protected]>

SL, I'm pretty sure was only selling plugs that fit the DISC rifles, not UL/Mountaineer.

I wonder if you could polish the factory plug pocket? Maybe with some polishing compound on a drill? ?

Assuming there is blowby maybe the headspacing is incorrect and that is the main issue? Shims? I don't know, just brainstorming.

Brand new, I'd probably be calling Knight as well.... I know others have had issues and Knight resolved them - albeit not real quick in some cases.

Oh Shoot - you are correct DISC only...

And yes fixing the primer pocket is really straight forward project.

 

[ShawnT]

ShawnT,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the info.

I must have Bestill confused with another forum member that made some plugs for me in the past. I will have to look through some emails and see who that was. However, I will be in Bestill's neck of the woods next month so maybe I can stop,by and see him.

This was the first time I had ever fired this rifle and it locked up after the first shot. I only fired 10 total and it happened on 8 or 9 of those shots. Primer pocket is clean and primers will easily seat by hand. I do need to put a drill bit in my range bag though.

The bolt release works as designed so long as the bolt is not stuck / locked up. When the bolt was stuck, I noticed several times that the release was difficult to retract. I don't recall if this was with the handle up or down. That is a great question though and I will have to pay more attention next time.

Sorry, I Mis-read that it happened on the first shot. When I read the part about the soot on the side of the primer, that to me indicated some blow by. But as Sabotloader mentioned there were a couple that the primer pocket itself was a bit tight and needed polishing. When firing the primer cup may swell some due to the back pressure and could be why it is hanging the bolt up. a little soot n the side of the primer would aggravate it. When you "Seat one by hand" is it really going in all the way to the bottom of the pocket?

As for Ventliner verses Bestill Plug, I would go with Bestill's plug. It really is the cats meow. To me it is a lot easier to clean when shooting BH that I have. That Tungsten Carbide insert will last a very long time and is replaceable if need be. If you are close to him by all means let him measure it up, if you can, and then you will really have a great set up. :yeah:

I can see that the pressure from firing would put that bolt release in a little bit of a bind, don't really see that as a problem. I think it is more of a Breech plug problem that is causing all the issues.

 

[4gun-drill]

Sabotloader- Thanks, BuddyT is who I was thinking of earlier. I purchased several breechplugs from him in the past for my LRH. I have have reached out to Bestill and I am going to try and meet up with him in June to have a plug fit to my rifle.

ShawnT- I can fully seat a primer by hand, and it will fall out with its own weight too. Seems to be just about a slip fit. The primer cups are growing quite a bit though. I am surprised they are not sticking to bolt face, maybe just not enough pressure?

I am planning to do a lot of shooting next weekend, so I may try shimming as a temp fix. I really want to replace the knight plug anyway.

Anyone have a couple shims to sell? I think a .005 would be plenty.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[ShawnT]

It is interesting. If the large cups swell too much and cause the bind it is possible that the pocket is a bit too large. I think most have been to small though. i also seem to remember someone had a pocket with a small burr in it too. I would think they would only stick to the bolt face if the center cup of the primer Bulged out which is normally an excess headspace issue which causes the primer to not be pressed back against the bolt when the bolt is closed.

Just double checking but have you measured a Win 209 primer as new then measured it again after firing with a caliper? How hard is it to close the bolt on a new primer?

I never measured the diameter of the primer cup after firing that i can remember. I am planning to shoot some tomorrow, mostly a new .32cal, but was hoping to shoot my UL a bit too. I will try to remember to measure a couple.

By the way the Breech plugs BuddyT had were the last of the original Lehigh plugs with adapter. He got them from Lehigh when he entered into contract with Knight to make their current BP's. They fit the Extreme/Elite/LRH series but I don't think they work in the UL. If you hear back from Buddy let us know if he still has some left.

Send me a Pm with your address. I can drop a couple of the shims in the mail. If I get it tonight I can drop by the PO on the way to the range.

 

[4gun-drill]

Guys,

Thanks for your continued help with this issue. I'm learning as we go, but I took some more measurements today. Using a stripped bolt, the handle will nearly close on a primer without any effort. Basically, I can feel the primer is there but I'm not really getting any crush. Using calipers I seem to be getting around .0005-.001 crush. I measured some primers to be around .297-.298 before firing and up to approximately .302 after firing.

I'm going to head to the range again next weekend. I'm going to try sorting my primers to find the longest ones and see if it helps any.

Thanks again.

 

[ShawnT]

I don't think you are getting enough of a crush fit to begin with. Your measurements indicate they are growing .004 in length and that is most likely the whole problem. See if the US Mail is quick enough to help correct that by the time you go to the range. :wink:

Just as a comparison when I close my bolt on a Win 209 I hold the bolt handle in my palm with my fingers wrapped around the trigger guard and have to really squeeze. This is giving me a crush of .005 if I remember right, plus I get crush on a Rem STS which is shorter. The primers pop right out and are Clean clean, this is with Bestill plug but my Knight BP was the same so the measurements for Bestills plug were the same for me. My UL is one of the earliest ones made though.

 

[4gun-drill]

I wanted to post an update to the problem with the sticking bolt. ShawnT sent me a couple of .005 shims and after installing one I am getting .0025-.003" crush with Win 209's. Over the weekend I went to the range and shot approx 25 rounds with no real issues.The bolt did sort of stick / hesitate on 2 shots, but closing the bolt and cycling again freed it up. There was zero blowback or leakage around the primer and a wrap of teflon tape is sealing off the breech plug well. All in all I am very happy with its performance.

I will say that at the end of the 25 or so rounds my breech plug was nearly plugged up solid. I was shocked at how quickly it accumulated. I noticed it because the last few primers started to bulge a bit, but did not stick.

I was trying a few different bullet / sabots and right now it seems to really like the 300 SST. I also shot the Barnes TMZ and a sample pack of Bloodlines. The Barnes and Bloodlines shot OK, but nothing special. However, they were extremely difficult to load. They also exhibited some vertical stringing but they may have been because the plug was so fouled. This rifle seems to have a tight bore so I may have to play with sabots.

Thanks again for the help. I'm very glad I finally bought an UL.

 

[WV Hunter]

Hey that is great news! Glad the shim took care of it for you. :yeah:
I have noticed that about the BP's as well. I only shot 8 the other day, and even then you could notice the buildup when cleaning it.

 

[GM54-120]

IMO the ideal crush for the Knights is .004-.005 but i did not have any problems in my Super DISC with a .003 crush and win209 primers. Im a bit surprised you have any sticking. I was shooting max loads with a 275gr and 300gr sabotless with zero sticking. I was using a Lehigh NFPJ adapter though which probably does not hold the primer as tight around the rim.