Why Do So Many People Use Such Heavy Bullets For Whitetails?

[MLN1963]

Okay, the title probably stirred up some strong emotions/opinions in some people but lets play nice. IMO, most hunters hunt whitetail deer, so that is the intended target of this conversation.

First off, I understand a modern muzzleloader is only a low to moderately powered weapon (Savage Excluded). Today's inline muzzleloaders compare to some other very effective; yet moderately powered rifles that have taken countless numbers of deer over the decades, the 30-30 Win and .300 Savage come to mind. I wouldn't take wildly long shots (that would result in an inhumane kills) with a ML or those rifles. Yet, all of them are certainly capable of 200+ yard shots with the right: conditions, bullet and trigger man. I did a little searching of the Winchester sight for muzzle energy for the 30-30 and .300 Savage. These numbers are just examples of some factory loads that a normal Joe may use.

30-30 170 Grain Bullet 1827 FPE (Feet Pounds Energy)
30-30 150 Grain Bullet 1902 FPE

300 Savage 150 Grain 2304 FPE
45-70 GOVT 300 Grain  2354 FPE (just for grins)

Now I will refer to the M.A.X. (Russell Lynch's Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts) load info I have sitting in front of me. These are all moderate loads of 100-120 powder and not the max 150 grain charge most MLs can handle. Not all testing was done on the same day so there is some variance in speeds.

240 Grn Bullet 100 grn charge 1889 FPE (Feet Pounds Energy)
240 Grn Bullet 110 grn charge 2049 FPE

250 Grn Bullet 100 grn charge 1970 FPE
250 Grn Bullet 110 grn charge 2163 FPE
250 Grn Bullet 120 grn charge 2349 FPE

260 Grn Bullet 100 grn charge 1854 FPE
260 Grn Bullet 110 grn charge 2086 FPE
260 Grn Bullet 120 grn charge 2215 FPE

You can see that the ML doesn't give anything away to these popular deer cartridges. Can it compare to a 30-06? Hell no, but that isn't a fair comparison. Have you ever had a whitetail in your sights within a hundred yards you thought you couldn't kill with a 30-30? 

I know some people like to have pass thrus for the old "double lung, let 'em run" blood trails and others prefer to expend all the energy internally and hope for the DRT (Dead Right There). I prefer the latter for high powered rifles, but have yet to kill a deer with a ML so I'm undecided at this time. I do know that if you have a pass thru shot it makes no difference if it was a 200 grain bullet or a 500 grain bullet you expended the same amount of energy all things being equal.

All this leads me to my original observation, there are a lot of ML hunters that use some heavy artillery, 300 grain bullets and up. I've seen 400+ grain projectiles in the local Walmart. I know that 99.9% of them aren't hunting BIG game in SW Oklahoma! I can't see a need for anything heavier than a 250 bullet at this time, but obviously there are others who disagree me, I would like to know why they choose such a heavy bullet?

 

[Muley Hunter]

I've never had an elk at 100yds that I couldn't kill with a 30-30, and that's why I used one all my life. I also agree with you about overkill on ML bullets. Especially, when you think that a round ball works just as good for deer.

I guess the thinking is it's better to have too much than not enough. Which is why so many CF hunters use magnums.

 

[Spitfire1]

'



Could not have said it better myself Pete !

If you have to pay for your animal you make sure the bullet you use WILL do the job !

 

[exMember]

Theres a huge hole to fill up in a 50cal and in order to stabilize that bullet, you need weight. Modern 50cal sniper guns use i believe a 550-600 grain bullet to do the job. Theres just a world of difference between a 3030 and a 50cal muzzy. I personally choose a muzzleloader for 200 yards shots over a 3030.
 
400 grain bullets i dont bother with. I use a 250gr Thor for all my hunts as it does the job as clean as anything ive shot.

 

[Spitfire1]

Have you ever tried shooting the 250 Thor with a 1:48 twist rifle Jon , would be interesting to see if it will stabilize ?

 

[exMember]

Yes, our cabelas hawken LOVES them with 90gr 3f goex! That sucker with open sights i am not kidding you, my dad put 3 shots into a 1 1/4" group easily. I normally keep it in the 2" range so even that is awesome.

 

[Spitfire1]

Can't wait to try a few in my gun.

 

[patocazador]

I'm using Hornady's 300 gr. .45 cal. bullet this year for one reason. The 250s are made for velocities less than 1600 f/s and fragment on bones without penetrating. That's exactly what happened to me last year while using one .. it blew up on the shoulder. Pistol bullets are made for pistol velocities and for the most part are hollow point bullets. The 300 grain is designed for higher velocities. Most .44 cal. bullets will hold up to the higher velocities and lighter weights can be used.

I also am going to use hand-cast lead bullets in a SWC (Keith) configuration.

 

[MLN1963]

I've never had an elk at 100yds that I couldn't kill with a 30-30, and that's why I used one all my life. I also agree with you about overkill on ML bullets. Especially, when you think that a round ball works just as good for deer.

I guess the thinking is it's better to have too much than not enough. Which is why so many CF hunters use magnums.

Muley

I have a couple friends that use .300 WM and 7 MM RM on our southern whitetails! They practically have to throw away a front quarter because of all the bloodshot and destroyed meat. And if they happen to hit a front leg bone then there is even more destruction and maybe both front legs will be tossed! 

Interestingly, the guy with the 7MM is the same guy who uses 200 grain Dead Center bullets in his Knight Muzzleloader. But honestly, he loves them for the flatter trajectory they provide.

 

[MLN1963]

Theres a huge hole to fill up in a 50cal and in order to stabilize that bullet, you need weight. Modern 50cal sniper guns use i believe a 550-600 grain bullet to do the job. Theres just a world of difference between a 3030 and a 50cal muzzy. I personally choose a muzzleloader for 200 yards shots over a 3030.
 
400 grain bullets i dont bother with. I use a 250gr Thor for all my hunts as it does the job as clean as anything ive shot.

I can understand using heavy full bore bullets in places that don't allow the use of sabots. You have no choice but to fill up the hole and that is going to take some lead and get heavy quick. The drawback is a horrible Ballistic Coefficient of said bullet, unless they lengthen it for the purpose of a high BC and then of course it gets even heavier. I would love to know the BC of a 250 Thor bullet.

It has always been my opinion that the flatter shooting any gun the better off you are for a multitude of reasons. With saboted rounds you can make the bullet smaller in diameter and longer for a higher BC. That is not to say that I wouldn't use a heavy full bore projectile if I was hunting dangerous game but we are talking whitetails here. 

A 50 BMG used for sniper rifles is the same bore size but not anywhere near an apples to apples comparison bullets. The 50 BMG mil loads I have seen are 660 grain and the Hornady A-Max bullets are a heavier 750 grain. These are made to reach out and touch someone and have over 12400 ft/lbs of energy (660 Grain at 2910 FPS)! The BC of these is WAY beyond anything you will find in a ML. We are talking .60 - .65 BC depending on velocity and platform for military ball ammo. Hornady claims 1.050 BC for the 750 grain A-Max (13,242 FPE)!

 

[exMember]

Not sure of the bc, but they are long because of being lighter weight copper. Only 8" drop at 200 yards, which is pretty darn flat shooting for a conical.

 

[MLN1963]

That is respectable. If I ever need to use a full bore I will give the Thor's some serious thought! Maybe I will even try them next year. Are they basically a full bore Barnes with a skirt?

 

[exMember]

yep, barnes makes them for thor. They have a hollow base that flares out to engage rifling and seal up the bore once the charge goes off.

 

[MLN1963]

Which Barnes bullet does the front half most look/performe like?

 

[Spitfire1]

You mean 12400 ft/lbs MLN.....

As for the 250 Thor the BC is .220.

The range and vegetation growing at the place which you normally get to hunt also dictates whether or not you can use a heavy conical or not.

I for one love heavy conicals as most of my shots are under 130 yds.

 

[MLN1963]

Yes 12,400!!! I fixed it. 

I was hoping for better than a 220 BC. That doesn't seem like it goes with the 8" drop John was saying? John what charge weight were you using to get that? 

Where I have been hunting is quite open so lobing them in is okay but not my preferred method. I like using the maximum point blank method for simplicity.

 

[Spitfire1]

I stand to be corrected but that BC was for the hollow point.

MLN as I know I wont shoot further than 130 yds I zero my .50 for that range.

I use 425 gr lead conicals that do 1615 fps and give me a +3" MRT , so it just suits me fine and carry a heck of a punch !

 

[exMember]

100gr BH209. I believe we were also sighted in 3" @100 yards. These shoot a great deal " 100fps +" faster than a powerbelt due to the superb sealing base.

 

[Okie Hog]

i have used 240 grain .430 XTP and 250 grain SST/Shockwave bullets almost exclusively on deer and hogs. Big hogs can be much harder to kill than deer. Don't have a problem putting down big hogs with either of those bullets: Just put the bullet where it's supposed to go.

 

[MLN1963]

As for the 250 Thor the BC is .220.

Where are you guys finding the BCs of Thor bullets? I looked on the Thor website and didn't find anything useful.