Why so many bullet problems?

[HuntingAddict]

I can't understand why there are so many reports of problems with sooo many ML bullets. I just started hunting with my ML so I'm pretty new to it. I don't know what bullet to trust. It seems like every one I read about the performance is hit or miss. I thought that with as effective as a 45/70 rifle is that it would be a no brainer for a ML to be a sure thing, pull trigger = dead deer. My omega shoots 100 yard groups with all holes touching but I'm still nervous about it with all the poor performance reports for bullets. What gives?

 

[flint head]

I don't think I've ever read a bad report on Nosler bullets other than they are a little expensive. They have perfect on game performance... for deer try the 260 grain Partition in a HPH 12 or if you have a tight bore the HPH 24. For bigger game the 300 grain PP is awesome. Personally I shoot the 300 grain for everything, it was very deadly on whitetails this year... two bang flops and one that went 30 yards.

 

[Critter]

A lot of the reports on bad bullet performance also have pictures of very dead deer. Much of what is considered poor performance is good performance to someone else. I have had great luck with the SST/Shockwave family. The only bullet I would not hunt with is the powerbelt but thousands of deer get killed with em every year. Go hunt, don't worry.

 

[big6x6]

A lot of the reports on bad bullet performance also have pictures of very dead deer.

THANK you! rayer:

In fact for the most part I hear of mostly GOOD to GREAT bullet performance on whitetails!

Bullets that almost ALWAYS seem to work(of course you HAVE to put it where it needs to go!):

1. Parker 275gr Ballistic Extreme
2. Hornady .452 XTP 250gr and 300gr
3. Hornady-T/C 200gr/250gr SST/SW
4. Nosler Partition Gold .451 260gr

These are the bullets I always, ALWAYS start with. Those are generally some of the more accurate bullets as well.

 

[WildShot]

Not all bullets are created equal. Bullet design is based on how a bullet expands depending on the target it hits and what speed it travels when it strikes the target. A bullet designed to expand on deer driven at velocities between 900 and 1500 fps will certainly ?fail? if it hits a deer at 2000. The bullet will fragment but in most cases the deer is still dead. I wish that bullet makers would label there products with a velocity range and animal type (thin vs. thick skinned) so that we could match the bullet to our loading and game. Much of that information is available but you have to look in the manufacture?s handloading data to find it.

Just my 2 cents, please don?t take it for more than it is worth.

 

[sabotloader]

HuntingAddict

1. Parker 275gr Ballistic Extreme
2. Hornady .452 XTP 250gr and 300gr
3. Hornady-T/C 200gr/250gr SST/SW
4. Nosler Partition Gold .451 260gr

Of course I would build my list different...

For Deer:
1. Nosler Partition .451/260
2. Barnes bullet of some sort
3. Speer Gold Dot .452/250
4. Speer Gold Dot .452/300

Here is an example of a .458 (45/70) Nosler Partition Protected Point and it's performance on a cow elk... Dropped her on the spot... The estimated range is incorrect - I lasered it later in the day 176 yards

And here is a 260 recovered from the tree behind a deer I got earlier this season. It would have weighed more but when i was cleaning it up a piece of lead from the nose of the bullet fell down the drain...

[/img]

 

[Spitpatch]

Please don't take all the reports on poor bullet performance as"gospel".

Remember, you usually hear about the negatives online. The vast majority of good kills and satisfied users usually goes unsaid as this is generally the norm. Variables of velocity, range, angle, muscle, bone, skin, and don't forget FAT, will affect a bullets terminal performance.

I personally would rather have a pass through shot for easier tracking, but thats the bowhunter coming out in me. Bang flops are cool and all, but they don't happen nearly enough for all of us using ranges out to 200 yards.

I agree....just hunt. Even the high power boys have to track deer after the shot. Just make it good.

I really like the fact that guys like you care enough to want the best. 8)

 

[SgtSabre]

I think maybe some among us expect too much from bullet performance. I've been guilty of this, too.

If every bullet doesn't perform like a catalog specimen, somebody isn't happy. The truth is that so many factors come into play when a bullet strikes an animal that it's impossible to predict what that bullet will do. No bullet, not even the highly-respected (and deservedly so) Nosler and Barnes bullets will perform perfectly every time.

 

[jaybe]

I agree with this:

I think maybe some among us expect too much from bullet performance. I've been guilty of this, too.

I also think many guys who have used CF for years are looking for similar performance with ML. The fact is, with a ML you will not get the "hydrostatic shock" effect that bullets traveling about 2600 fps and above will have.
Unless your bullet actually contacts the spine, you will not usually get the boom - flop performance that you often get with a CF. There are exceptions, of course.
It sounds like you (Hunting Addict) have been doing your range work to get good groups like that. If you put any of the bullets suggested by the others in this thread in the "boiler room", you'll have nothing to worry about.

 

[Cajun]

The bullet used on that elk looks like it performed just fine. :lol:

Congrats on your elk!!!

 

[sabotloader]

jaybe

The fact is, with a ML you will not get the "hydrostatic shock" effect that bullets traveling about 2600 fps and above will have.

From my perspective I would disagree with that statement - when I do my job in bullet placement.. Hydrostatic Shock is outstanding... When I opened up this elk the only thing left recognizable in the chest cavity was a small part of the heart - everything else was just jell-o - dark red chunky jell-o

The 4x4 whitetail I hit with the 260 showed the same results only worse... the animal was above me quartering to my left - I hit behind the left front shoulder - the bullet passed through a small portion of the chest cavity then out the diphragm through the rear compartment and out the right side of the animal in front of the hind quarter.... The vital area... the heart was intact, both lungs were totally reduced to jell-o, and the aft compartment, as much as I hate to say it--- everything and I mean everything but the liver was ruptured - it was a mess... Hydrostatic Shock in abundance...

 

[RAF]

IMO every bullet does exactly what the manufacturer designed it to do. That just might not be what you want it to do or the preformance you're looking for. I like the sst and the bonded SW's. They both kill deer quickly for me.

 

[jaybe]

Hydrostatic Shock

Sabotloader: Your comment about the presence of hydrostatic shock in ML's caused me to pause, since I was told this by my cousin who (I thought) knew everything about bullets and ballistics. He was the one who told me it only happened above 2600 fps, so that's what I've believed since the early '70's. Of course, I have passed this "wisdom" along to many people.
I just did a google search on "hydrostatic shock" and was quite surprised at what I found. The "opinions" and "expertise" seem to follow 3 lines:
1. Some say that it refers to the tissue damage caused by a high velocity (no speed given) projectile (especially a mushrooming projectile) passing through bone, muscle and organs. That's pretty much what I thought it was (except for the speed).
2. Some believe it refers to a "shockwave" set up by the projectile that causes extreme hydraulic pressure being sent through the bloodstream so that it "shocks" the brain and central nervous system, sometimes even when the hit is in an extremity, such as an arm or leg in a human. The illustration of the hydraulic braking system of a car is used as an example of the effect.
3. Some say the whole idea is bunk. True hydrostatic shock only occurs in a closed system of pure liquid, such as a jug of water. Animals and humans are comprised of a high percentage of liquid, but they also contain bone, tissue, organs and veins/arteries which have a degree of elasticity - - thereby preventing hydrostatic (better termed "hydrodynamic) shock from occuring.

So - I guess "tissue damage" might be a better term to use, and I agree that it certainly does happen with ML's.
AND - to keep this thread on track - placing any well-made bullet in the vital areas of a deer will cause death within a short time. A bullet does not have to mushroom perfectly, nor create an exit wound to kill. It just needs to cause enough tissue damage to cause extreme hemorraging and/or trauma.

 

[sabotloader]

jaybe

I really do not know what to call it... I used to call it "hydraulic pressure" because i am much more familiar with mechanical terms and theories. What I do no is, as in this elk, the bullet passed through the chest cavity and if you look at the picture - it passed through fairly high in the cavity. But when I opened the cavity - both lungs were completly gone - just lumps in the jell-o and the lower half of the heart muscle was gone. In my mind there is no way the bullet hit everypiece of the lungs and the the lower portion of the heart - but yet all of these organs were mixed in the jell-o.

For me this is even more dramatic in a deer. The Nolsler will pass through and there will be nothing recognizeable as an organ in the chest cavity. If the animal is able to run it will leave a significant blood trail because this jell-o material will pump out both holes as the animal runs.

So, I do not really know if it is "Hydrostatic or Hydraulic" pressure but something cause something to blow up... Shoot a can or bottle of water - some pressure will be exhibited as the can or the bottle will literally rupture - what the name of that pressure is - I do not really know - although I lean to "Hydraulic" pressure of an enclosed liquid...

I read something the other day that is the explanation of a lot of things for me when it comes to shooting... "do not shoot the deer - shoot a spot on the deer" - probably most bullets would work very well if we all shot that spot on the animal, which is sometimes easier said than done...

 

[Mike Vaccaro]

"Hydraulic" This physical action will take place at much lover velocities. My best analogy to all, throw a rock into a soft mud bank at a slow velocity. What happens? The mud not only gets moved forward of the rock but also moves away in a radial pattern. Higer velocities will yeild a higher energy wave but it is present at the lower speeds as well. The speed of the wave will dictate how severe the damage to surrounding tissue, that is around the path of the bullet.

I think we have all seen it as a child with a BB gun, how big was the hole in the mud compared to the diameter of the BB?

Additionally, the classic high shoulder shot also jars the shoulder blade and transfers it's own wave of energy to the spine. The shot being close to the spine gets two waves of hydraulic pressure. One from the path of the bullet and one from the jolt to the shoulder. This wave as it hits the spine is similar to the wave that a boxer gets when the tip of the chin is abruplty moved. This momentary dislocation of the brain from it's normal positions is what causes them to balck out\get nocked out.

Hope this puts a little clarity to the process\physics. My descriptions are somewhat generic but fairly accurate to the physics in question.

Henry

 

[sabotloader]

Mike

That is a great explanation - thank you...

 

[HuntingAddict]

great

That's some great replies guys. Makes me feel more confident. I do agree that you mostly see the negative and don't see people talking about the positive even thought there's lot's of it out there.

I personally shoot 777 primers and powder or pellets and keep the loads conservative with mostly 2 777 pellets. I shoot the 250 gr. shockwaves and my Omega just shoots amazing with that combo. I can't wait to get a deer with it. Since my deer season is rapidly closing, I will have to change plans and go after a pig after deer season. I'm thinking a 250 shockwave right behind the ear will be a no track proposition for a hog.

Thanks so much for all the valuable info on this. You guys are great.

Tom