woodman arms patriot vs knight mountaineer/ultra-lite in .45 ???

[JeffB1961]

prices are between $900ish -$1000ish for them shipped so not far apart for that price range . the WAP has a 1:18 twist (1:24 also available) vs Knights 1:20 twist . break action vs. bolt action . melonite vs dynatech vs nitride , FWIU melonite is a form of nitride and both seem to be superior to dynatech FWICT . the WAP only comes with melonite but the knights are available in either nitride or melonite . a lot of the knights are a few months out concerning availability and the WAP has a 6-20 week ETA . i'm sure there's other differences and please share the ones i didn't mention that may be important/usefull to know .
soooooo ..... what are y'alls thoughts on these 3 guns when compared to each other ?
thanks , jeff

BTW , can the WAP use smokeless powder or just BP and BP substitutes ?

https://woodmanarms.com/shop.php
https://www.midwayusa.com/black-pow...er=45 Caliber&Brand=Knight&cid=23206&sortBy=5

 

[MrTom]

BTW , can the WAP use smokeless powder or just BP and BP substitutes ?

Wasn't this just covered in another thread? If anyone wants to know if the Patriot can be shot smokeless, let them contact Woodman. There isn't any room here for third party inquiries.

 

[JeffB1961]

yes , but i asked here before that was answered in another thread .
i apologize .

here's a link to the replies that were made if anyone is interested .

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/barrel-coatings-and-treatments.55298/page-2#post-520214

 

[deermanok]

I would say to contact Woodman directly to get that answer concerning smokeless powder.

 

[JeffB1961]

yes , that was the best answer in the other thread .
what are y'alls thoughts comparing them with each other ?

 

[Mnt monkey]

I think they're both proven performers, I have a knight rifle I got here on Modern muzzleloader from sabot loader, I haven't shot the rifle I call it ,,the Relic, to me it is a collector's item from a man I greatly respect, and thats very rare in life. I have shot two Patriot rifles,, and I've had the great Fortune to shoot some of woodman arms prototype work, if you haven't noticed I am a big fan, I hate flattery whether I'm getting it or giving it I'm a show me a guy and if I'm going to flatter or speak up for something it's got to be because it is proved itself in my hands experientially, I have nothing but praise for what I see Mark at Woodman arms producing ,designing, and working on for the future! Perhaps comparing a break action to a bolt action is challenging, the function of each is quite different ,,I think you would be well served with either rifle but I sure like the options that Woodman arms also gives you maybe there was a time in knight rifles history where they gave a lot more Hands-On personal service I don't know, I do know this ,Mark offers us muzzleloaders a lot of options, I he's willing to listen to a customer's ideas if they want something slightly different I don't know if you can call knight rifles up and get that. Save your money, pick up cans, pull some funds together buy one rifle this year and the other one next year and let's do the test side by side ,, I do predict this if you had both rifles and could spend eight hours carrying one hunting all day and the other rifle the next day it might influence your decision.

 

[Mnt monkey]

1- choice of brux or McGowan Barrel.
2- comes with a breach plug that is adjustable for most 209 primers,,, nice to not spend this kind of money on a gun and have to turn around and buy a different plug for it, maybe it's just me but I'm tired of that.
3- barrels and rifle capable of light smokeless loads.
4- The Patriot is much lighter rifle to carry.
These four points jump way out to me having said that,,, I'm a bolt action man always will be.

 

[ENCORE50A]

BAB

 

[GM54-120]

While i like the Woodman, lets be fair....To get smokeless capable you need to buy an additional plug also and its not exactly cheap either. You cant buy a Ultra Lite smokeless but you can buy it with any ignition type you want other than LRMP. You can make it any state legal in minutes as long as the state allows inlines.

 

[Boonechaser]

I’ve tried to like Knights and no matter how much I try or how many I’ve bought, I’ve turned around and sold them. I just don’t like bolt action muzzleloaders! I just never feel I can properly clean the threads or breach area and it drives me nuts.

I’ve never had to use a western system and always opted for the bare 209 primer variety and it always seemed lacking and very very dirty to shoot. An upgraded Bestill rear seal plug ($200) seemed to be the best (of standardish plugs) and seemed to improve everything very well but the only system that I really liked was the Bestill LRMP setup but its very expensive To have done.

so like GM stated to shoot mild smokeless loads in a Patriot, it does require a $120 breech plug but to get a knight where it should be out of the box is $120 up for standard plug replacement up to $500+ for the LRMP upgrade that Bestill offers.

I still want to try a Patriot and I can’t give a hands on review but hopefully won’t be too much longer. I agree with Mtn monkey, Mark is down to earth and terrific to work with. He has always responded to emails and messages and never once made me feel as i was bothering him.
Knight wont even answer what load they achieved 3000 fps, on their newest offering.

 

[GM54-120]

but to get a knight where it should be out of the box is $120 up for standard plug replacement

Odd, ive done 6 Knights with just a Lehigh plug and adapter. About $32 and shipping. Virtually spotless breech in all 6 without using a single shim. Getting ready to do a 7th. Bestill plug was $80ish if you can DiY on a couple measurements....Pretty simple, i did that too.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Ive got 2 Knights I'm pretty happy with. But my next two MLs will most likely be Woodmans. A Patriot and an Omega conversion, both with adjustable plugs.

 

[WV Hunter]

Odd, ive done 6 Knights with just a Lehigh plug and adapter. About $32 and shipping. Virtually spotless breech in all 6 without using a single shim. Getting ready to do a 7th. Bestill plug was $80ish if you can DiY on a couple measurements....Pretty simple, i did that too.

I've done it with 5 DISC rifles. Perfect as well.

 

[Boonechaser]

Odd, ive done 6 Knights with just a Lehigh plug and adapter. About $32 and shipping. Virtually spotless breech in all 6 without using a single shim. Getting ready to do a 7th. Bestill plug was $80ish if you can DiY on a couple measurements....Pretty simple, i did that too.

That may be but I was still having issues or wasn’t spotless! It took the Bestill plug to make it spotless and I did send the barrel so maybe I could have saved $40 my doing a few simple measurements but what’s $40 when your still having to spend money on top of what the gun cost to improve, what’s broke?
I’ve yet read anyone say they needed a different BP for the Patriot out of the box unless going to smokeless and $120 to be able to shoot smokeless out of a factory gun, is pretty damn cheap…

 

[GM54-120]

Broke? The Lehigh plug is cheaper than the OEM Knight plug. So its an item i would be buying sooner or later....I just bought it sooner since i was one of the first 25 people to ever get a Lehigh plug. I knew it worked great. I was burning plugs or OEM savage vents up in well under 200 shots no matter what rifle i shot. Ive still got some Lehigh vents going past that in my smokers.

Has nothing to do with broke. The OEM plug was made to work with a wider variety of primers just like ALL companies do. CVA primer pockets are even larger but it sure as hell aint broke. Its just that all primers will fit that plug and obviously some will be loose.

So if it is broke then the Patriot ships "broke" too unless you pay an additional $105 plus for the adjustable plug....Now we are upto over a grand Right?

 

[Boonechaser]

So if it is broke then the Patriot ships "broke" too unless you pay an additional $105 plus for the adjustable plug....Now we are upto over a grand Right?

Again, I’ve yet heard anyone complain about a leaking “standard” plug on the Patriot, have you?

Also for that $120 or up to $1000 as you stated you get a factory smokeless capable muzzleloader. Can’t get a smokeless Encore for that nowadays.

I understand you’re a fanboi of Knight and sure they’re a good muzzleloader but not for me, as I’ve stated. Sorry my opinion is different than yours. I gave my reason and not gonna debate how dirty they are without some work, no matter the cost. Sorry if it’s hard to not have total agreement on a particular subject but in my years, that’s more the norm…

Besides as I said, I’ve not held a Patriot but from what I’ve read and the impression that I’ve gotten of Mark and his willingness to help, I will have one, sooner than later. Who knows, maybe I’ll dislike it as much as I do, Knights…

 

[LHR]

I love my Patriot, it just flat out shoots great for me. If I had one gripe / concern it would be the hinge pin and the very slight slop I can feel when the action is closed up. If it didn't shoot so good for me I would have to complain on that, but no complaints here!

 

[GM54-120]

Again, I’ve yet heard anyone complain about a leaking “standard” plug on the Patriot, have you?

I think you are kidding yourself if you think all primers in the standard Patriot plug are gunna just seal up hunky dory. Isnt that the whole point of the "adjustable plug"?....So you can adjust headspace for various primer lengths.

 

[Heat]

I'm having the same debate with myself, Woodman vs Knight Ultra lite. Timely!

 

[GM54-120]

I'm having the same debate with myself, Woodman vs Knight Ultra lite. Timely!

Both are very cool. Just pick the feature set you want the most. Light smokeless loads can be a huge plus. The main thing that stands out to me is the optional Brux barrel. Its a nice step up from GMB or McGowen.