Woodman Arms?

[GM54-120]

1-18 really isnt needed unless you want to shoot some REALLY long bullets. 1-20 and 1-22 are well proven and common twists for a 458 blank. My Pacnor 45 is a 1-22 and it shoots pretty much anything i can shove down it. You wont see much benefit from a 1-18 until you start talking about conicals over 500gr. Pretty much anything in a sabot is fine in a 1-20 or 1-22 including 250gr 40cals. You wont find many 40cals heavier or longer that will work in a sabot so if your goal is sabots, 1-18 is a waste.

Jacketed sabotless bullets over 300gr might benefit from a faster twist especially if you dont want to shoot them with max loads. Sabotless loads like that though are going to put really high peak pressure on a primer in a short breach plug. LRMP is better suited to that application simply because it can handle far more pressure than a 209.

 

[Cattledog]

Happy to clarify...
Barrel blanks are made by Mcgowen. They are stainless and button rifled. They made buttons for our .45 and .50 cals. The 1-24 twist .45 has proven to be very accurate. We've got hundreds in the field with superior results. Also tested a 1-18 twist. It will offered in the .45 probably by the end of 2018.

The breech plug design was changed to a standard 12mm size. This allows any socket to be used, not our proprietary adapter. Around the end of 2018 these will be manufactured. Both are compatible so if you had an original breech, you can simple change it.

Cost, yes it is a little higher. We use 17-4 stainless in lots of the internal components, including the breech plug. I hate rust on anything, especially my muzzleloader. 17-4 is not affected by corrosive powder residue. This material is twice or more cost compared to 400 series stainless, which will rust.
We also do not manufacture a hollow plastic stock, only laminate and walnut. These cost 3 times more.

The .50 cal is slightly lighter than the .45 as the bore is the only difference. I am a deer hunter and tracking is my favorite method of hunting. Carrying 10 lbs all day, up and down mountains sucks. A gun that is light and fits well in your hand is best. If you put 2 fingers under the area you carry, this gun will balance there. I show this to hundreds of people at every show I go to. Hal Blood and Lanny Benoit, some of the greatest deer trackers like particular rifles favorable for quick shooting and carrying around all day. The Patriot was modeled for this and features a button style safety. Push it and shoot. I've never paid these guys a dime but you will see them hunting with it.

You will find top notch craftsmanship in our muzzleloaders, they don't go out the door unless they are flawless. I want my customers to be happy. Fired or not, I make it right or give a refund. Hasn't happened yet and I plan to keep it that way.

Thank you for explaining where the cost is in the rifle. Are the .45 barrel and .50 barrel swapable on the same receiver?

Great to here the change in the breech plug.

Is the receiver/action available in stainless steel with nitride treatment too?

 

[mwwoodman]

Both barrels are identical besides the bore and breech plug. A slightly larger breech plug is used in the .50 cal. I have had people buy one gun with both barrels. They just switch the forend stock and done. Removing the barrel is simply pushing a pin which can be done with the ramrod.

As for stainless frames, that is in the works. We actually did this in the beginning. We are going to offer the same frame in 17-4 stainless with nitride. Primarily for those who desire more weight. This frame adds one pound and is compatible with both .45 and .50 cal. The stainless version is a bit more costly due to the material and significant machining differences.

 

[Cattledog]

I would be interested in the full nitride 0.45 cal rifle.

I hate rust too. I hunt mostly coastal saltwater marsh. I have yet to see any muzzleloader taken into the marsh leave a season rust free. I have one blued TC that rusted it's first time out in the marsh...

 

[mwwoodman]

I would be interested in the full nitride 0.45 cal rifle.

I hate rust too. I hunt mostly coastal saltwater marsh. I have yet to see any muzzleloader taken into the marsh leave a season rust free. I have one blued TC that rusted it's first time out in the marsh...

I can guarantee that the Patriot will handle that test. We started out without nitride but now its all that is offered. No bare stainless unless it is 17-4. You will see some early photo's with bare barrels. About the first 100 made were like this. We don't nitride components like the breech plug, trigger or safety button. When 17-4 is heat treated to its full hardness and you throw it in a 1100 degree salt bath, core softening occurs.

 

[GM54-120]

17-4 for barrels is pretty rare. McGowen uses 416R and so do just about all the other big names. The closest thing in strength that is used for barrels is Lothar Walther's LW50 which is stronger than 416R. I THINK it is actually a 17-4 type stainless. 17-4 is more costly to machine. It certainly is more corrosion resistant and stronger than any 416R im aware of. All my Knight plugs have been upgraded to 17-4 Lehigh/Bestill plugs.

LOVE the idea of offering the frames in stainless as an option. 17-4 is probably way overkill though for a nitride treated frame.

Im still very curious how you handled primer stress in such a short plug with a small flame channel volume. It not terribly difficult if the plug is primer specific like my NULA plug AND the plug completely supports the 209. Even the rim of a 209 is supported in my plug and the 209 is fully enclosed in the plug.

It certainly can be done but tolerances must be crazy tight. My NULA plug is tiny and its loads make much more pressure than BH209.

The rim of the primer is recessed into the bolt face when its closed.

More than likely you wont have much of an issue in a 50cal or 45cal with sabots but all it takes is one guy that wants to shoot a 465gr conical with 80grV of BH209 and peak pressure can easily rise to nearly 30kpsi. Sabotless jacketed 300gr+ loads can get close to that too without exceeding Westerns 120grV limit. By comparison a 200gr 45cal sabot load barely hits 22kpsi.

 

[mwwoodman]

Our first small run of 25 guns we used Douglas barrels. When I asked them to quote 100's of blanks, they had no volume price break. It already costs enough to make this gun. I went to Lothar-Walther. They made me something like 100 of them for a much better price. They make a great barrel, done in Germany also. Certainly not 17-4 but it machines really nice, probably better than 416. I was able to get the actual composition from Lothar in order to do simulated FEA analysis. I was not impressed with Woody Woodall's personality in dealing with him. I tried and tried to place a PO for another several hundred blanks. This order was in excess of $30,000. No response whatsoever. Moving forward I had no desire to deal with his ignorance. I called several other barrel makers and Mcgowen was where I ended up. Dan Wynne is very pleasant to deal with, they make just as good of a barrel and the price is much better on high volumes.
As for the breech plugs. From what I know, Blackhorn does not have load data for such heavy bullets, the heaviest on their chart is like 444 gr and it says not recommended. I would have no problems testing this. My breech plug supports the primer with a depth of .218, this leaves about .050" under the rim exposed. I'm not sure what your definition of "tight tolerance" is but the primer pocket tolerance we manufacture to is .248" +.003 -0.000. Depending on the primer diameter itself, the fit is going to vary. This is actually a nightmare - sometimes. Nothing is worse than needing a knife or pliers to pull a spent primer, especially when your deer hunting and you need another shot. I have customers shooting every brand of primer there is. The length also varies so we simply have an extended firing pin to ensure they all get a good strike. What I have found is that Remington STS 209 primers, with the breech pocket specs we hold, work incredibly well. I get zero blow back, even when I've tested loads of BH209 exceeding 120 gr. In fact my personal .45 patriot has never been cleaned and the breech area still shines like fresh turned stainless. Always pull out with just fingers or tip the gun and they drop out.
I will do some test with heavy bullets in .50 cal this summer and reply with some results...

 

[GM54-120]

LW50 is actually one of the best barrel steels around. Pretty much overkill though for a regular muzzleloader. Ultimate Firearms uses them. My NULA has a Douglas Premium XX chromoly barrel. Its probably my favorite just because its not overly fussy and butter smooth.

My next barrel will be a Brux. They have been making lots of cut rifled ML barrels lately for several of the custom builders. Pricing is pretty similar to what Pacnor wants for a button rifled barrel.

Western does list load data upto 500gr and around 54gr by weight. Its under the cartridge data. You can get a pressure estimate simply by choosing a load with 100% density or slightly more. They dont have load data for 45cal MLs either yet we all know it works. Just ask the guys tearing up the targets at Friendship's Inline matches. I would say most of them are shooting a max load with a 300-325gr jacketed bullet shot sabotless. In the past they were using more than Westerns max 120grV load until the rules were changed.

Myself and a few others here are shooting around 80grV (54gr by weight) and upto a 480gr conical in our fast twist 45s. Our plugs though have a 5/32" flash channel using either a Savage type vent liner or tungsten carbide bushing. BH209 is really hard on the flash hole with higher end loads. Once the flash CHANNEL fills with some carbon and/or the flash HOLE erodes its murder on the primers. There is not enough volume left in the channel to handle the increase in pressure.

A short plug makes this even worse but at the same time slows flash HOLE erosion. My NULA plug's flash hole is still like new after over 1000 shots BUT it also seals nearly perfectly. Im shooting loads in it that approach 35kpsi. IMO the key is fully supporting the primer AND as little blowby as possible. About the only way to achieve that in a break action is a slight .030-.050 crush on a primer and as much of the primer in the primer pocket as possible. My NULA seals (head spaces)on the rim of the primer similar to rimmed centerfire.

The problem comes in when you compare the lengths of primers. A Rem STS is much shorter than a Win209. If you get a slight crush on a STS primer you will get way too much on a Win209 in a break action. The rifle might fire when snapped shut. Ive seen it happen. If you get a slight crush on a win209 you will get none on a STS and it will leak badly....Been there too.

Savage went another route with the MLII. They sealed on the sides of the primer but thats even worse IMO. OD and taper varies just as much as length. Its not terrible if you hand fit your plug to your primer but its still nowhere near as clean as my other plugs.

This is what a good seal looks like. These primers are from one of my Knights with a slight primer crush and some really heavy loads. Blowby is basically zero even with a 385gr bullet and 120grV of BH209. I was testing this Lehigh 17-4 plug with WinT7s just to see how well the plug functioned with mild primers....Flawless

 

[jims]

Those certainly are clean fired primers.

 

[GM54-120]

WinT7 or Win209 come out pretty much the same in that one. Fed209A is a little dirtier and all of the rest are what i consider to be filthy. I had Bestill make my new plug a tiny bit tighter. In that plug a Win209 is spotless and a Fed209A is pretty close. Before the Bestil plug that rifle, a Fed209A would stick most of the time in the NFPJ adapter. Not terribly but it did require dry firing it for removal.

This is what im talking about when it comes to tight tolerances. My NULA is so tight i can only use a CCI209 or a CCI209M. The bolt wont close with other primers. Many of the other primers wont even fit in the plug out of the rifle. Its a small price to pay for flawless performance.

 

[mwwoodman]

It felt very narrow in the forearm and grip. The balance was weighted forward. Opening the break action was odd, but I could get uses to it. I live about 20 miles from Woodman Arms, the rifle never wowed me to go and visit and meet the group. It still looks like they use a weird/proprietary breech plug.

https://www.woodmanarms.com/product/bre ... zleloader/

I get a lot of feedback emails and texts. Thought I would share the one below...

Mark,
I didn’t manage to make it up to my camp for NH muzzleloader this year, but I carried my Patriot around the last 5 days here in VT. I am very happy with the way this gun carries. Probably one of the best carrying guns I’ve ever used, rifles included. It’s a huge step up from the 25 year old Knight I retired. The old Knight shot awesome, but my shoulders would be sore after carrying that thing for a couple days. The Patriot lengths are dead ringers for my 7600 carbine, but I think yours is a better balanced gun. If it weren’t a single shot I’d carry it during rifle season! If anybody ever asks my opinion when shopping for muzzleloaders, yours will be my only recomendation.

Thanks again,
Travis T

 

[GM54-120]

Well you certainly use some good parts and metals. As you might have seen the faster twist 45s are making a slight come back to mainstream again. CVA has announced 3 new 1-22 models including a upper end bolt action. Your pricing falls in between their models if the posted MSRPs are correct.

What i like about the Patriot is the weight. All the others are much heavier and somewhat more target or long range oriented.

 

[JeffB1961]

I've been lookng for more detaild info on the patriot and this thread has a lot !

Bumpy bump bump for other folks currently interested in a patriot .

 

[dwm]

You’re tormenting yourself, buy both the ul and patriot, sell the one you don’t like.I have the ul in 45, absolutely a beast of a gun.I’m waiting for a woodman brux for an omega, that’s gonna be a beast when done. Possibly you should go that route