22 Cal Flintlock Rifle, Need some info

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Hello All, I have been away for several years but now I am back. I built a 22 cal flintlock rifle many years ago and never fired it. I will add some pictures later. The barrel is off of a regular 22 cal Marlin rifle with the multi groove barrel. I turned a 1.125 inch piece of round steel for the breech plug and tapped the threads in it for the barrel. I cross drilled it for the vent hole. The lock is a regular flint lock action mated to the side of the breech plug. The barrel is 28.125 inches long.
Now I told you all of that to ask you this, how many gains of 3f powder would you use to test fire the rifle. I am using a .010 inch thick patch with bore butter. Bullet presses in snug but not too tight. The bullet is a .250 lead ball swaged down to fit the barrel the patch.
I was thinking of starting with 15 grains and working up to 25 grains.
Anyone have any suggestions?
 
I too made a .22 black powder rifle from an old single shot .22 rifle, but mine is a percussion gun. I found that the gun would not shoot round balls very accurately due to the faster twist in the barrel. I use .223 air rifle hollow point slugs that weigh 30 grains. I have found excellent accuracy out to 35 yards using only 5 grains of 4F powder. Also much easier to load using the slugs as opposed to a patched ball, especially with my sausage fingers.
 
That sounds great, when I swage the bullets using .250 inch round balls I get a bullet that is longer then round. I will try these first.

Now I'm getting a little dumb in the head here and I'm trying to remember if I just weigh the 5 to 15 grains on my precision scale if that will work! I'm so used to just using my powder tubes that are already weighted out.
 
The .22 short first came out around 1858. It was used in the early .22 revolvers that S&W made. It used 4 grains of black powder with a 29 grain bullet. The .22 long rifle cartridge came out around 1887 and it used 5 grains of black powder with a 40 grain bullet. The .22 long round also used 5 grains of powder but with the 29 to 33 grain .22 short bullet.

There was the .22 extra long round that used 6 grains of BP with a .40 grain bullet too. It had a muzzle velocity of about 1050 fps. Quite leisurely as compared to what our modern .22s do.

Anyway that might give you some ideas on loads to use. I think it is pretty neat to have a .22 ML. It is the epidome of frugal shooting. A pound of powder and a pound of lead would last seemingly forever.
 
Thanks earlwb,
OK, I went over the flintlock action and trigger parts and she is now ready to fire. The bore is a 22 cal measuring .214 to .216 inches. I will use .215 to determine bullet and patch size. My swaging die makes a .203 size bullet out of a .217 lead ball. I plan on using a .007 patch which gives me a .217 patch and ball. I will use 15 grains of 3f powder and see what happens. I have .010 patch material which I plan to use after I see what the .007 patch does. I will report back in a day or two with my results.
 
I believe that15 grains of powder is way too much for a .22 cal ball. Just my opinion, but I think accuracy will be poor, and why the need for so much powder? Modern .22 RF ammo generally gets anywhere from 1200-1600FPS with a 40 grain bullet. Your ball is quite a bit lighter so I suspect some flyers.
 
I would start by reading any load info available for the NAA mini cap-n-ball revolver

Remember you are dealing with a 221/222 barrel, not 224
 
Thanks Guys, 15 was just a starting point, I will cut it back to 8 grains to start with. Just to make sure I'm going the right way, I will be weighing the powder on a precision electronic scale. When I get a good shooting amount I will make a small powder cup out of a 22 shell.
 
Thanks Guys, 15 was just a starting point, I will cut it back to 8 grains to start with. Just to make sure I'm going the right way, I will be weighing the powder on a precision electronic scale. When I get a good shooting amount I will make a small powder cup out of a 22 shell.
Thanks Guys, 15 was just a starting point, I will cut it back to 8 grains to start with. Just to make sure I'm going the right way, I will be weighing the powder on a precision electronic scale. When I get a good shooting amount I will make a small powder cup out of a 22 shell.
Gonna need bigger than a 22 case - a 223 case holds 31gr 3F Schutzen per my scale

9mm or 38 special should do ;)
 
I would start by reading any load info available for the NAA mini cap-n-ball revolver

Remember you are dealing with a 221/222 barrel, not 224

I have a NAA cap and ball revolver and a max black powder load is 4 grains of FFF with the NAA 30 grain bullet. Actually that is all the powder the little chambers can hold. Muzzle velocity is a sedate 500 fps or thereabouts. Thus it is equivalent to the early 1860s black powder rimfire cartridge revolvers. The .22 buckshot balls do work though. You might even be able to stuff in 5 grains of BP with round ball bullets. But the short barrels can’t take advantage of the extra powder charge.
 
My head is spinning from the advice on this thread. No offence, but the reason original ML rifles did not usually go below 32 cal. is simple: ramrods and fouling. In the past, what could you use as a ramrod for a sub 30 caliber bore that wouldn't break in ordinary use or carry, and especially if the bore was fouled from BP? A metal rod would have worked, if you happened to have one from a military musket and it was small enough to go down the bore (unlikely, and its weight would have been unfortunate plus it would have continually wanted to fall out of the ramrod pipes.) And what would have allowed for putting a patch onto a miniature jag to clean out the bore?

Now the other major problem: BP fouling. That's why BP rifles and pistols have deeper and wider grooves, to take care of some of that fouling and still allow the patch (or bullet expanded at firing by bump-up (obturation) ) to get the ball or bullet to spin and thus stabilize. Then a sub-problem exists too: twist rate. A modern .22 barrel has a rapid twist rate and a ball pushed too fast is going to simply "strip" and fail to take the rifling. Hence, you are shooting a smoothbore. In this case, the microgroove rifling is going to fill up very quickly with fouling and here again you are then shooting essentially a smoothbore.

In former times, the smoothbore rifles and pistols were larger bore, as in .54 to .80 or so. That's because a larger ball has more momentum and thus it is likely to fly farther in the direction of aim, rather than curving away to the side. A smaller shotgun pellet loses velocity faster than a larger one and thus has more liklihood of veering off course, plus its trajectory curve is worse because of the lowering velocity.

My bottom line: find out what the twist rate was in a former .22 pellet rifle, and hopefully in the early .22 pistols and rifles of the later 1800s. A round ball does not need as much stabilization as a bullet, due to its form, but as you say, you are swaging your roundballs to an elongate form (i.e., a bullet form). So all the more you need intact, functioning rifling. And the more BP you use, the more fouling you create. Even ten grains is going to be too much, in all liklihood, especially with your fast twist, very shallow rifling. The faster you try to push your lead "bullet" the more likely it is to strip the rifling and accuracy goes out the window. I you can do it, use the known velocity of the early .22s as in this thread, and calculate that RPS (revolutions per second) of that bullet at, say, 800 feet per second. That RPS is what you want to try in your .22 ML rifle and hopefully your "bullet" doesn't strip the rifling.

I'd try this: get yourself a musket nipple that has the same threads as your current one (probably 1/4-28, try TRESO as supplier) and shoot your patched bullet using solely the musket cap (hard to find, tho). I has the same brissance (firing power) as a modern 209 shotgun primer. It may well give you adequate velocity in your very small bore.

Also,a musket cap will probably light off a very small charge of Blackhorn 209 BP substiture powder. Since you want to shoot the powder with the least fouling, that would be BH 209. It is loaded at 70% weight vs volume of BP. ( An aside: 4F BP gives you more pressure and velocity, but you don't want that. But it might possibly burn cleaner and leave less fouling,which you do want -- if using BP). So if you were using, say 4 grains of BP, your load of BH 209 would be 4 X 0.7 = 2.8 gr. by weight. Your modern steel barrel will handle a lot more than that, but keep in mind two things: the smaller the bore, the easier you build pressure, and in addition, the faster you try to push your lead "bullet" the more likely it is to strip the rifling and accuracy goes out the window. If you can chronograph your shooting trials, see what you have for accuracy at 7-800 fps. Do not try for "heavy" loads of BP like 15 or 20 gr, or the equivalent of BH 209 using a musket nipple. It's way too much and fouling will very quickly remove any accuracy, plus your "bullet" will strip the rifling.

You may also want to try a "Mag-Spark" nipple from Warren Outdoors, in whatever thread your current nipple has (likely 1/4-28, as said). It fires using a small rifle primer, and that alone should propel your small "bullet".

I'm always saying maybe I could be wrong, so I look forward to your shooting trials. Good luck. (Addendum: apologies, read thru this thread and was off thinking about caplocks and later 1800s .22s. Forgot the original message said flintlock!)

Aloha, Ka'imiloa
 
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Thanks Guys, 15 was just a starting point, I will cut it back to 8 grains to start with. Just to make sure I'm going the right way, I will be weighing the powder on a precision electronic scale. When I get a good shooting amount I will make a small powder cup out of a 22 shell.
In my .22 BP percussion rifle I use 5 grains of 4f under the 30 grain .223 air rifle slug, (not pellet). The slug has a hollow point and a cupped base that I fill with mink oil lube. I get 1/2" groups at 25 yards, and the slug penetrates a 3/4" pine board. Perfect for squirrel hunting. I can usually shoot 4-5 rounds before having to swab the bore. I use a brass ram rod that I cut grooves into at the end to hold a patch. (like a jag). This gun is mostly used as a training arm for our club's youth group, but I do take it out on occasion for squirrel hunting.
 

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