Colorado Muzzy Moose. CVA or T/C? 209 Blackhorn or Triple7?

[DoritoBoy]

New to the site. Been using a muzzleloader for a few years now. I drew a unit 8 cow moose tag in Colorado this year. I have a CVA Optima V2 (NW Edition). I harvested an Idaho moose a few years back using 300 gr Thor bullet with 90 gr Triple 7. 40 yrd broadside, complete pass through. It grouped really well for me and I even hit a large rock at the range and split it in half. I have been impressed with them. Just a bit spendy.

I also have used (and still have) Great Plains, No excuses, and Maxihunter rounds. I lost a cow elk a couple years ago with poor shot selection on a quatered towards shot into the point of the shoulder with the Great Plains. I have never shot an animal with the No Excuses but they seem like a solid bullet, price is great, and they seem to group ok for me. I could never get the Maxihunter to group well for me.

Now that I will be headed to Colorado I am interested in the prospect of using 209 Blckhorn that I have only read about up to this point. My bro-in-law has loaned me his T/C Triumph which I could use with 209. I could also convert my NW Optima to take 209 primers.

I guess my questions are:
1) is it worth changing things up to shoot Blackhorn 209?
2) What would you rather take? The T/C Triumph? or the Optima? I will be shooting both and comparing.
3) Should I just stick with what I know?

Thanks

 

[mnoland30]

From what I've read, Blackhorn is a more consistent powder than other substitutes. People love it because it cleans up easily, and the barrel doesn't need to be cleaned between shots. I tried a can, and couldn't tell any difference between it and 777, except cost and availability. Most of the time, I can't find it on the shelf here in Albuquerque. The cost seems exorbitant. But if you're shooting Thor bullets, you may not mind. I am a firm believer in heavy bullets. I use 400 or 405 gr. for elk over 115 gr. 777. I shot my cow last year at 70 yards. I hit her in the front left shoulder with a hardcast bullet from Harvester muzzleloader. It exited the right rear ham. I prefer bullets that expand more, and this cow ran about 150 yards, but I sure can't complain about penetration. I've been getting great groups in my .45 caliber Encore barrel with home cast bullets and about 80 gr. of BlackMZ with no sabot. Idaho Lewis suggested a wool wad over the powder, and it makes all the difference.

 

[MrTom]

I thought I had read in the literature that comes with the V2 models of CVA's Accura and Optima that bullets over 350 [?] grains were not advisable. I may be wrong however it may be wise to confirm maximum bullet weight with the company before putting heavy weights thru the CVA gun. If you feel you need slightly more weight in a jacketed bullet maybe move up to a .458 bullet in 325 grains and the appropriate sabot.

It seems to me that if you collected a moose with a 300 grain Thor you should be able to wrap one up again using the same load. As for the Blackhorn powder the two primary advantages over T7 is second shot loading ease and that the 209 powder is way more water resistant than T7 or black. If you opt for the Optima rifle you will need to switch to the 209 compatible plug but that's not a bank breaker. I watched a guy at the gun club not long ago take his first shot at a target using 3 pellets of T7 a black sabot and what appeared to be a 300 grain XTP, then set out to reload. When he ran the sabot/bullet down for his second shot of course he hit the crud ring and tried to force it and his rod bent and broke off....not something you'd want to have happen in the field and won't occur using the Blackhorn powder.

You have some options, but for me the first would be the powder move.

 

[rangerod]

I gotta agree with MrTom. Black Horn is so easy to use. Reloading in the field is a piece of cake. I also shoot the Thor out of my Optima with fantastic results with 100 grns Black Horn. I don't shoot the Thor at the range because of the cost. I'll usually shoot saboted xtp's. Sometimes I'll just take a different gun.

 

[dragonfly]

The moose don't know what kind of gun you use. Shoot the gun that'll put the bullet where it needs to be.

 

[Busta]

Stick with what you know, and convert the Optima V2 to a normal 209 primer firing pin and Blackhorn 209 breech plug.

Get some of the new 420 grain No Excuses, sized at least .001" - .002" larger than your bore diameter. Don't use those Great Plains or Buffalo Bullets with the hollow point / hollow base on truly big game as you have already discovered. They turn inside out and ring out on large bone.

The CVA's can take/shoot up to a 444 grain PowerBelt solid/flat point, so there is no reason you cannot shoot an all lead bullet of that weight or less.

Use the slightly oversized (.001" - .002") 420 grain No Excuses lead bullets to keep your bullet from migrating off your charge. Use one or better yet two .518" diameter .060" thick Vegetable Fiber Gasket Wads over 80 or 90 Volumetric grains of Blackhorn 209 to start. Work up to 100 grains Volume if you are not recoil sensative if you can still get consistent accuracy. I can tell you from experience, 80 grains by Volume and a 415 to 440 grain bullet will knock down Bull Elk all day long, as long as you put it in the boiler room. It should work just as well on a cow moose.

Hey guys, he cannot use any saboted bullets in Colorado for any Big Game Muzzleloader Season for any species. Moose and Elk also require a minimum of .50 caliber.

 

[LarryBud]

I hunt CO Muzzy.

I use Thor’s with BH 209 in the Omega and NoEcxuse / T7 the Knight.

I personally like a big chunk of lead over the Thor’s. ( Omega wont group the lead ). Where we hunt a long, open shot simply won’t happen. Might be different for moose but for Elk, it’s up close a personal.

What powder is a personal choice ( generally speaking, no BH209 with a Lead conical ). If You have time, play around with your options but you can’t go wrong with a it chunk of lead.

 

[DoritoBoy]

Thanks for all the replies. Yesterday I installed the 209 firing pin and blackhorn breech plug on my optima. What is the reason for not shooting a large lead conical over blackhorn? Does it burn too fast? Also, with the Thor bullets... I previously shot the .500. they grouped well and are not too difficult to load (take about 10 lbs of Force to load). I pulled out the sizing pack yesterday and tried the .501 and they take about 30-35 lbs to load. I think I read that they recommend about 20 lbs loading force...? And there are some grooves on the .500 from the rifling. Will a slightly loose bullet have any issues over blackhorn?

Also, what primer do you recommend? I have heard some are better than others for blackhorn.

 

[GM54-120]

BH209 works just fine with conicals. Shot them many times just dont get crazy with the load. You want around .002 over lands for the conical and a wad under it. A good sealing breach plug is a must. Personally i would use a modified OEM CVA plug (vent liner mod) and shim the firing pin bushing to get about a .003 crush on the primer.

About 80gr by volume is about all the powder you will need or want. Much more velocity and the conical is on the edge of leading. Under ideal conditions a mag primer is not needed. In fact i would try to find some NSI (Nobel) 209 primers for this. They are larger OD and may fit the CVA plug better than a Win209. They are about the same length as a Win209 also. Mag primers are a band aide solution for a poor plug design but in extreme hunting conditions they are not a bad idea either.

 

[donparadowski]

I shoot a T/C Strike using BH 209 powder and a CCI 209 primer to propel a Harvester 300 grain PT gold with their black crushed rib sabot. It is a solid 200-yard shooter and if I had a conveniently located range longer than 200 yards, I’d have a longer opinion. I would not hesitate to shoot an elk with this combination. For moose, I'd want to use a heavier projectile.

 

[Redclub]

As Busta stated only conicals in Co.

 

[Popz1967]

My .02 cents, Thompson and Blackhorn. As has been said blackthorn seems to burn more completely thus less fouling easier cleaning and better shot. Personally I own a TC Omega and really happy with it would not trade for anything. I can take my scope off and be just as accurate with the fiber optic sites.

 

[rusticbob]

T/C Triumph and T7, forget the BH, pain in the ass to get, much more expensive than T7, and if cleaning between shots seems to be a problem on a hunting trip, you are certainly taking too many bad shots.