EXTREME LONG RANGE

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ENCORE50A

Long Range Shooter
Supporting member
*
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
7,530
Reaction score
8,177
Defining ELR with muzzleloaders……….. 800yds +

Consistency isn’t good enough anymore.

Things I’ve learned.

Measuring propellant by weight is a must. Measuring and verifying the weights twice or more is a requirement. Velocity from shot to shot must be as identical as possible. SD’s must be as low as possible.

Bullet weights must be identical.

Higher bullet loading force increases velocities therefore bullets must be sized exactly identical for loading forces. Simultaneously, the higher loading force also provides quicker and fuller bullet obturation. Pressures are higher.

Seating force for bullet to propellant must be identical. Changes in seating forces can also affect velocities, which will change POI.

The longer and higher BC bullets have an advantage in supersonic flight but are more unstable at their transonic flight before going subsonic. Shorter bullets are more stable during the transonic flight period before going subsonic.

Wind and time can be your worst enemy. When shooting ELR, the amount of time between loading and shooting can have extreme wind changes and observation and corrections are a requirement. Learning it isn’t easy.

Drop tubes are not a gimmick. They put the entire propellant charge directly to the ignition source. The drop tube funnel is also necessary for pouring in windy conditions.

Optics must have a large amount of vertical adjustment, along with using an angled rail to increase vertical travel. Bullet drop becomes excessive as the bullet speed slows at ELR.

Barrel twist rates matter.



To be continued………
 
Last edited:
Defining ELR with muzzleloaders……….. 800yds +

Consistency isn’t good enough anymore.

Things I’ve learned.

Measuring propellant by weight is a must. Measuring and verifying the weights twice or more is a requirement. Velocity from shot to shot must be as identical as possible. SD’s must be as low as possible.

Bullet weights must be identical.

Higher bullet loading force increases velocities therefore bullets must be sized exactly identical for loading forces. Simultaneously, the higher loading force also provides quicker and fuller bullet obturation. Pressures are higher.

Seating force for bullet to propellant must be identical. Changes in seating forces can also affect velocities, which will change POI.

The longer and higher BC bullets have an advantage in supersonic flight but are more unstable at their transonic flight before going subsonic. Shorter bullets are more stable during the transonic flight period before going subsonic.

Wind and time can be your worst enemy. When shooting ELR, the amount of time between loading and shooting can have extreme wind changes and observation and corrections are a requirement. Learning it isn’t easy.

Drop tubes are not a gimmick. They put the entire propellant charge directly to the ignition source. The funnel is also necessary for pouring in windy conditions.



To be continued………
Good job Encore. Waiting for the next installment.
 
How much does a 30fps difference in velocity affect a bullets POI at 1,000yds?

One way to help determine it, is to just change the velocity by 30fps in your ballistics program.
Just as an example.............

Assume we're shooting a 350gr bullet with a known BC and the velocity is 2,196fps.
To reach 1,000yds, it would require 64.4moa.

Now, we'll slow the bullet down 30fps to 2,166fps.
To now reach 1,000yds, you'll need 66.3moa.
That's 20" difference in POI at 1,000yds.

This is why it's so critical when shooting ELR, that charges and velocities are as identical as possible.
 
I reweighed 164 Lane's tubes today. Only 10% of them actually weighed the original weight. All but two averaged right around 3/10 gr shy. The other two, one was 3/10 over and the other 4/10 over.
 
I reweighed 164 Lane's tubes today. Only 10% of them actually weighed the original weight. All but two averaged right around 3/10 gr shy. The other two, one was 3/10 over and the other 4/10 over.

Following.
 
Great post Encore!

I've noticed that even with sabots, I can feel a difference in loading pressure as in every now and then I get a loose or tight fitting load, it always seems to translate into a flyer from the group!

I've been thinking that sizing before loading in sabots could reduce this inconsistency.
 
I reweighed 164 Lane's tubes today. Only 10% of them actually weighed the original weight. All but two averaged right around 3/10 gr shy. The other two, one was 3/10 over and the other 4/10 over.
The question is......why? If you re-weigh all of them, will the weights be off again in 3 months?? X
 
The question is......why? If you re-weigh all of them, will the weights be off again in 3 months?? X
I reweigh them to keep them as identical weight as possible. I will reweigh them prior to any match also. There's nothing like knowing you've eliminated a contributing factor.

There's no "consistency" in ELR shooting, things have to be as exact as possible. For 99% of shooters who use BH209, consistency is fine because they are hunters and not long range shooters. However, when you're shooting 1,000yds, the difference in just 30fps means a 2MOA or 20" change at the target. Even though the charges are identical, and the bullets sorted and of identical weights, BH is not consistent in velocity. Again, for 99% of those who shoot BH, its "consistency" is fine for practical hunting ranges.
 
BlackHorn 209 velocity may not be perfectly consistent, but its far better than any other sub we have access to. I also weigh my charges with it and often have ES's in the 20's fps across my chrono. I don't get much better than that with my high power rifle reloads.

I would also wonder how your charge weights could change, if you weighed them the first time, that indicates to me a measure scale that is not consistent or had not been allowed to stabilize before starting measurements?
 
You get what you pay for. I used a RCBS scale until I got into LR. Using it my loads varied up to .5 +/-, which is huge. Now my tolerances are .02 or 1 kernel Retumbo. With Triple 7 it's. 001. I also tried two of the small portable digital scales for BP, but the the loads were never consistent, either. Just my observations. Good shooting everyone.
1000001565.jpg
 
BlackHorn 209 velocity may not be perfectly consistent, but its far better than any other sub we have access to. I also weigh my charges with it and often have ES's in the 20's fps across my chrono. I don't get much better than that with my high power rifle reloads.

I would also wonder how your charge weights could change, if you weighed them the first time, that indicates to me a measure scale that is not consistent or had not been allowed to stabilize before starting measurements?
It could be me, maybe pulling them too early off the scale? My RCBS will load to the 1/10th, which is pretty good when using BH.

So even at 20fps, there's approximately 2moa difference at 1,000yds. That amounts to 20".
PRS get it down to 4. Granted, we're not shooting a cartridge.
 
You get what you pay for. I used a RCBS scale until I got into LR. Using it my loads varied up to .5 +/-, which is huge. Now my tolerances are .02 or 1 kernel Retumbo. With Triple 7 it's. 001. I also tried two of the small portable digital scales for BP, but the the loads were never consistent, either. Just my observations. Good shooting everyone.
View attachment 42142
$700 for a set of scales at my age?
 
I'm not saying your pulling off the scales too soon, what I'm referring to is not letting the scales warm up 20-30 minutes before weighing your charges. I have notice a variance in my RCBS 1/10 grain scale when going too soon.
I work with electronics and expensive test equipment all the time, and they even need to warm up in order to stabilize and settle in before you can get good and consistent readings.
 
Back
Top