First Muzzle Loader Questions - CVA Accura LRX 50. Caliber

[Pathfinder60]

The rifle is not primed when you load it. The primed module is inserted into the breech plug when you go afield. While it does require a bit of effort to remove the module when fired or when you wish to disarm the rifle, its certainly no more difficult than fumbling around with shims, o-rings and 209 primers that will fall back out easily if you're not careful when you close the breech. I carry a small Leatherman type tool in my pocket that has needle nose pliers as part of it and i can pluck out a module easily. All this is actually an aside because where the LRMP ignition system really shines is in it's ability to remain clean far longer than any 209 primer system. When i was still using 209 primers the chamber in the breech plug that requires a 1/8" drill bit to clean out got crusty after the 1st shot. Every subsequent shot made it even worse to the point that after 5 shots it required the drill bit treatment to ensure consistent ignition. Not so with the LRMP. Instead of a crust, I get a smooth stain...almost like a graphite like coating. It's hard to describe without actually seeing it.
Regardless, I have my choice of either a Lehigh 209 breech plug with o-rings and a vent liner or my Arrowhead LRMP system and it's no contest. I'll never use anything but LRMP primers in either of my muzzleloaders. There's a reason why CVA designed the Paramount around a Vari-flame ignition system using a large rifle primer (which by the way is inferior to the Arrowhead system in every way) rather than a 209 primer...it simply does a better job of igniting a BH209 powder charge.

 

[Pathfinder60]

I saw that written description too, but was hoping to see it in a video. On the surface, it would seem much easier and faster than the BI system.

What is a primer extraction tool? An expensive flat screw driver?

I use a small Leatherman type tool that I carry in my pocket...no bigger than a Bic lighter. It's has needle nosed pliers as part of it and I use that to pluck out the module when I wish to reload or disarm the rifle.

 

[rangerod]

I shoot a Accura 50 cal. 84 weighed gr BH209, 300 gr Speer Deep Curl .452, in a black Harvester crushrib.

Sounds like a great load. What's that like on the shoulder? I've shot the 300 Deep Curl and it's a great bullet also. There are a lot of great bullets to choose from.

 

[SantaFe66]

Thanks for great advice already! The following is taken from the Blackhorn website

"Blackhorn 209 is designed to work with standard 209 shotshell primers. For the best results, we recommend the following brands:

• CCI 209M
• Federal 209A

We DO NOT recommend any of the 209 primers designated for muzzleloaders (Winchester Triple 7, CCI MZL, Federal Fusion, or Remington Kleanbore). These primers are all weaker than standard shotshell 209 primers and do not provide adequate ignition for Blackhorn 209 – especially when used in a poorly designed breech plug system. We also DO NOT recommend #11 percussion caps or musket caps."

Should I look for muzzleloader specific 209 primers or 209 shotshell primers like they recommend?

Thanks!!!

Like you, I am new to Muzzleloading and got a jump on the NM draw (which I have been unable to score with) again this year so congrats on getting a tag. New Mexico rules are so far Ok with scopes (don't hold your breath though) and not OK for Firestick rifles. This controversy about Muzzleloading primers vs. Shot gun primers is confusing. I can't get a legitimate answer from Federal, Winchester or any hunter as to whether they are really needed or not. I'm getting 400 shotgun primers from a friend that got rid of his rifle and those are all I could find. Forget finding the Muzzleloader ones (you might try Primer Valley.com though). What I've found is they won't tell you whether they have them in stock and will accept your order anyway. You'll wait and wait for them and meanwhile they have your CC info.

I have a lot of load development and shooting to do to figure out the best powder, bullet, load, and the actual effective distance I can shoot accurately so I'll burn up components learning.

Where in New Mexico are you. Perhaps we can share info.

 

[mnoland30]

I hunt deer and elk in NM with a muzzleloader. NM Game & Fish is trying to eliminate scopes for muzzleloader hunting. Won't happen until next year. For elk, I've had great luck with .45-70 405 gr. bullets with Harvester sabots over 115 gr. of 777. Where are you located and what unit did you draw? For deer, I've used Precision Rifle Dead Center 340 gr. bullets. They expand to over an inch, and the deer drop in their tracks. Harvester PT Scorpions work, shoot well, and are less expensive. My friends use Barnes expanders fro deer and elk. They work very well. Blackhorn isn't necessary, just convenient. Loose powder often shoots more accurately because you can work up a load at 5 gr. increments, and powder is less expensive. My CVA Accura likes Win 209 primers (no blowback). If you find some of them, let me know. A range rod is stronger than the one that comes with the gun. Some are solid brass. Once you have your load, mark your ramrod so you know when you have a full load. It is easy to get distracted and double load your gun.

 

[SantaFe66]

Thanks for the info on Loads and Bullets. Once I get my primers from a friend in Abq I'll start working up loads with my rifle. I would sure like to use the Firestick rifle but it's not legal in NM.

How are you marking your ramrod without weakening them, or did you just replace the one that came with the gun with a brass range rod?

 

[mnoland30]

On my black aluminum ramrod, I just score the black with a pocket knife. On the range rod, you can use tape. Blackhorn sells overpriced tubes (just like their powder) but you can buy 20 of the same type of tube on eBay (with a box to hold them) for a reasonable price. Just search for "powder charge tube"

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Hey team,

Sorry for the long delay! I am getting married, building a house, and my fiance just launched her business... so we have a couple irons in the fire haha.

I got my CVA Optima V2 nitride set up and have shot it 3 times. I was a little scared to shoot the thing at first but am getting more comfortable with it. Last weekend I shot it a bunch and was grouping pretty well at 100 yards. I plan to push to 150 or 200 this weekend and see how it goes.

Currently, I am running two 777 pellets, a barnes spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, and 209 primers. I am using the Oring as well. It has all been working pretty well so I have not tinkered around too much yet, but am curious about using loose power and trying other bullets. I have decided not to try the Blackhorn system this year.

I have some 777 loose power that I haven't used yet and am wondering if I should, or if I should stick to what as been working well so far. If I try the loose power what is the best way to measure it? I have read about both measuring by weight and by volume and am unsure which is better. I have a few standard kitchen scales, would they work to measure by weight? Should that Barnes 250 work on a mule deer or is something heavier recommended?

I also have some questions about cleaning between shots. Like I said, I am running 777 pellets and definitely see the often mentioned crud ring. Should I scrub that off after every shot? I've currently been using Windex and CVA bore butter occasionally coupled with a range rod, a nylon brush, and patches. This cleaning method has worked but I am unsure how often to clean...

Do I swab every shot? Every three shots? How does cleaning affect accuracy? Can I use cleaning solvents I use on convention rifles on my ML, like Butch's bore shine? Why don't people use cleaning rods with ball bearings like a Dewey rod? Wouldn't the range rod scratch up the barrel after heavy use?

My hunt is 2 months away and I have a few questions about hunting in the field with the ML. Should I load it and have the primer in when hiking/stalking? Then just cock back the firing pin before taking my shot? How to I carry pellets/powder and bullets/primers when out in the field? I have see the quick load tubes, are those the best option for follow up shots (if needed)? I haven't used the stock ramrod a single time yet, only my range rod. I need to use the stock rod before my hunt to make sure I can use that also.

Thanks and sorry for all the questions! I wouldn't have made it this far without ALL the help you have provided. Thank you!!!

James

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Like you, I am new to Muzzleloading and got a jump on the NM draw (which I have been unable to score with) again this year so congrats on getting a tag. New Mexico rules are so far Ok with scopes (don't hold your breath though) and not OK for Firestick rifles. This controversy about Muzzleloading primers vs. Shot gun primers is confusing. I can't get a legitimate answer from Federal, Winchester or any hunter as to whether they are really needed or not. I'm getting 400 shotgun primers from a friend that got rid of his rifle and those are all I could find. Forget finding the Muzzleloader ones (you might try Primer Valley.com though). What I've found is they won't tell you whether they have them in stock and will accept your order anyway. You'll wait and wait for them and meanwhile they have your CC info.

I have a lot of load development and shooting to do to figure out the best powder, bullet, load, and the actual effective distance I can shoot accurately so I'll burn up components learning.

Where in New Mexico are you. Perhaps we can share info.

Thanks for the info! So yoiu didn't draw this year? What unit(s) did you put in for?

I am in ABQ. I have a bunch of CCI 209 primers I found here in town. Have you been shooting recently trying to develop your ideal load?

 

[GM54-120]

Currently, I am running two 777 pellets, a barnes spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, and 209 primers

By 200 yards i would be surprised if that bullet still expands reliably. 2 T7 pellets is a dog to be perfectly honest. You are lucky if its even hitting 1800fps at the muzzle. Run the #s with the claimed BC. I sure would not want to be shooting at an elk at 200 with that load.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

By 200 yards i would be surprised if that bullet still expands reliably. 2 T7 pellets is a dog to be perfectly honest. You are lucky if its even hitting 1800fps at the muzzle. Run the #s with the claimed BC. I sure would not want to be shooting at an elk at 200 with that load.

I am so new to this I don't understand much of what you wrote.

"2 T7 pellets is a dog to be perfectly honest" Are saying that's a bad combo? Not enough power?

"Run the #s with the claimed BC." What is BC? Sorry if that a stupid question.

I am hunting mule deer and doubt I will take any shots as far as 200 yards. Hopefully 100 to 150 max. But you never know. I want a balance between powerful enough to drop my deer but not too scary to shoot and blows my shoulder off.

That is why I am asking for suggestions on pellets vs powder, how to best measure powder, and if that bullet is too small for mule deer.

Thanks!

 

[ElDiablo]

Hey team,

Sorry for the long delay! I am getting married, building a house, and my fiance just launched her business... so we have a couple irons in the fire haha.

I got my CVA Optima V2 nitride set up and have shot it 3 times. I was a little scared to shoot the thing at first but am getting more comfortable with it. Last weekend I shot it a bunch and was grouping pretty well at 100 yards. I plan to push to 150 or 200 this weekend and see how it goes.

Currently, I am running two 777 pellets, a barnes spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, and 209 primers. I am using the Oring as well. It has all been working pretty well so I have not tinkered around too much yet, but am curious about using loose power and trying other bullets. I have decided not to try the Blackhorn system this year.

I have some 777 loose power that I haven't used yet and am wondering if I should, or if I should stick to what as been working well so far. If I try the loose power what is the best way to measure it? I have read about both measuring by weight and by volume and am unsure which is better. I have a few standard kitchen scales, would they work to measure by weight? Should that Barnes 250 work on a mule deer or is something heavier recommended?

I also have some questions about cleaning between shots. Like I said, I am running 777 pellets and definitely see the often mentioned crud ring. Should I scrub that off after every shot? I've currently been using Windex and CVA bore butter occasionally coupled with a range rod, a nylon brush, and patches. This cleaning method has worked but I am unsure how often to clean...

Do I swab every shot? Every three shots? How does cleaning affect accuracy? Can I use cleaning solvents I use on convention rifles on my ML, like Butch's bore shine? Why don't people use cleaning rods with ball bearings like a Dewey rod? Wouldn't the range rod scratch up the barrel after heavy use?

My hunt is 2 months away and I have a few questions about hunting in the field with the ML. Should I load it and have the primer in when hiking/stalking? Then just cock back the firing pin before taking my shot? How to I carry pellets/powder and bullets/primers when out in the field? I have see the quick load tubes, are those the best option for follow up shots (if needed)? I haven't used the stock ramrod a single time yet, only my range rod. I need to use the stock rod before my hunt to make sure I can use that also.

Thanks and sorry for all the questions! I wouldn't have made it this far without ALL the help you have provided. Thank you!!!

James

Too many questions to answer in one post.

Yes, that 250 TEZ should be great for deer (not for elk though). No, you can’t weigh 777 with a kitchen scale. Get yourself a cheap volumetric measure like this.

 

[GM54-120]

Loose powder is far more adjustable. You are not stuck with either 100gr or 150gr. The Ballistic Coefficient of that bullet is probably no better than .210. So if it leaves the barrel at 1800fps with 2 pellets, how fast is it moving at 150 and 200? How fast does it need to expand reliably? Probably at least 1300-1400fps.

So lets check. Ballistic Calculators - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

By 150 you are down to 1350fps @1011fpe
By 200 you are down to 1233fps and 843fpe

So while the retained energy is enough at 200 for deer, its borderline on how much speed it needs to expand as designed. These numbers are assuming the BC and muzzle velocity are correct. They may be a little less.

 

[txhunter58]

One quick reply on 777:

Yes on loose powder. Cheaper and easier to tweak a load. I only use volume to measure. Out to 200 yards you wont see any difference.

Another thing is that loose is more powerful than pellets. 100 gr by volume of loose ffg 777 is 15% stronger than 100 gr pellets. They make the pellets weaker

To say it another way: loose 777 is equivalent to around 115 gr compared to 100 gr of pellets

 

[txhunter58]

I do NOT do a thorough cleaning between shots. But I do run a wet patch (both sides) and a dry patch (both sides) between each shot.

Do NOT use brushes or bore butter between shots. Windex followed by a dry patch is all you need.

There will be a crud ring down where the bullet sits and it you run the cleaning rod down all the way the first stroke, it may get stuck. I run it down till I meet resistance and then do a series of short strokes until I get the patch bottomed out. After that first patch clears, you can do the second patch without resistance.

 

[GM54-120]

50/50 Windex and Isopropyl alcohol is a great mix for swabbing. Dries fast and less likely to freeze in the cold. Buy some plain patches. Wet them and squeeze out the excess. Put the damp patches in a good sealing container that is small enough to take with you.

Get rid on the Bore Bummer. Use a quality synthetic oil for storage or even Ballistol.

 

[ElDiablo]

My hunt is 2 months away and I have a few questions about hunting in the field with the ML. Should I load it and have the primer in when hiking/stalking? Then just cock back the firing pin before taking my shot? How to I carry pellets/powder and bullets/primers when out in the field? I have see the quick load tubes, are those the best option for follow up shots (if needed)? I haven't used the stock ramrod a single time yet, only my range rod. I need to use the stock rod before my hunt to make sure I can use that also.

Check NM regs on what is considered a “loaded” firearm (muzzleloader). In most places this means charged with bullet and powder and primed with cap/primer. So, I load my rifle and leave it loaded all fall (using Blackhorn) then I cap/prime it when I step out of the truck (remove it when I get back in). Yes, a speed loader is the way we all (most anyway) carry extra powder/bullets. I generally use the small 5 and 10 ml screw top vials like this.

 

[txhunter58]

To be honest, if I am shooting 777, and I forget to presoak some patches, I use real spit. Lick one side of a patch and run that side down first. 777 is water soluable

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Too many questions to answer in one post.

Yes, that 250 TEZ should be great for deer (not for elk though). No, you can’t weigh 777 with a kitchen scale. Get yourself a cheap volumetric measure like this.

View attachment 22262

Awesome, I'll pick up on of those powder measures.

Thanks

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Loose powder is far more adjustable. You are not stuck with either 100gr or 150gr. The Ballistic Coefficient of that bullet is probably no better than .210. So if it leaves the barrel at 1800fps with 2 pellets, how fast is it moving at 150 and 200? How fast does it need to expand reliably? Probably at least 1300-1400fps.

So lets check. Ballistic Calculators - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

By 150 you are down to 1350fps @1011fpe
By 200 you are down to 1233fps and 843fpe

So while the retained energy is enough at 200 for deer, its borderline on how much speed it needs to expand as designed. These numbers are assuming the BC and muzzle velocity are correct. They may be a little less.

Got it. Thanks for breaking that down!

So you're saying I want to shoot for at least 1300 to 1400fps on impact?