Help me choose a flintlock....

[Aaron871]

I’m looking at Pedersoli left hand flintlocks.

I have a dozen or so muzzleloaders, all inlines or cap and ball pistols. I cast my own bullets and have done some paper patching. I like doing things different and having unique items.

What projectile and what accuracies can I expect out of a .50 with 1:24 / 1:48 / 1:60 twist rates?

I ultimately would like a hot rod Hawkin in 45 caliber and would eventually go to Rice and have that barrel made for a swap. Would it be a bad move to hot rod a flintlock?

What type of accuracy should I expect out of a 1:20 .45 caliber flintlock?

 

[Aaron871]

The more I look, the deeper I fall in....

The guys at Rice are not excited about re-barreling a Pedersoli. They recommend building a custom...$$$

Most production models are sold out, and few were offered in a left hand flint to begin with.

Hmmmm..... it’s only money, right?

 

[Gettincloser]

Best of luck to you. I am new to the game with a TC Hawken 50. I am getting the PRB to touch at 53 yards consistently with a 1:48 twist barrel (with a good rest). I would expect the same of a flintlock as long as you hold steady. Then again, what do I know. Never shot a flintlock but currently looking into them.

 

[Bushfire]

Pedersoli hawken hunter and jager hunter come with 1:24 twist as factory.

 

[valkyrierdr]

It is very hard to put a flintlock into a gun designed to be a cap lock., especially factory made guns. If you buy a good lock, stock, and barrel and find a good builder, a flintlock is very dependable and accurate. I went to flint 30 years ago kicking and screaming, but would not go back to a cap lock again. There are many good locks. I have Davis and L&R in most of my flintlocks. I have 8 now. There are many good barrel makers. Green Mt. is a great barrel for a reasonable price. It is worth the investment.

 

[45-70]

Get a kit by Kibler , 90% finished when you get it.

 

[Bad Karma]

The more I look, the deeper I fall in....

The guys at Rice are not excited about re-barreling a Pedersoli. They recommend building a custom...$$$

Most production models are sold out, and few were offered in a left hand flint to begin with.

Hmmmm..... it’s only money, right?

Maybe have the pedersoli lined and bored to the caliber and twist you want?

 

[valkyrierdr]

By the time you do that , you will have a lot of money into something that probably won't work right. Pedersoli, make some good replica flintlocks. I have had one of their Brown Bess's. I had to have the frizen retempered to get a good spark. It was too soft. They aren't cheep.

 

[Matthew323]

The problem with most European modern flintlock mechanisms is that the manufacturers, ALL OF THEM, failed to do their due diligence, and are, for the most part, producing locks with improper geometries. There isn't a flintlock amongst them, with the sole exception of the Pedersoli Mortimer, that doesn't need MAJOR work done to it to bring it up to the standards of a L & R, Zorne, Chambers, Kibler, Laubach, etc.

When you consider how much a Pedersoli costs, sending a lock to someone like Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading, and potentially spending another $200.00, or more, to "FIX" what should already be correct, can be a bitter pill to swallow. Brad's prices start at $75.00 to tune up one of the better locks. According to him, even the CNC machined flintlocks from Kibler & Laubach will benefit from his attention. Lesser locks might need new parts to be fabricated; springs to be forged & tempered; lock plate holes to be plugged, redrilled, & reamed, cocks to be heated & bent, etc.

A good flintlock is a wonderful tool to experience. Once you have shot a smooth functioning flintlock with a good trigger (I prefer a single trigger), there is no going back.

I was incredibly fortunate to have my first longrifle be a semi-custom from Golden Age Arms Company in Ohio that I saved up for nearly a year to purchase in 1971 at age 17. It cost me $330.00, and had a well assembled, large Siler flintlock that was tuned beautifully.

So, I was spoiled rotten from the get go, and never looked back. Every time I tried a percussion rifle, or pistol, I found them to be too persnickety & fiddly.

EXACTLY how most people think of flintlocks. I have always found that shooting my flintlock longrifle to be one of the most relaxing pursuits that I have ever engaged in. There is a beauty, & seamlessness that just flows like yoga, or meditation when I am shooting a flintlock, especially by myself. In no way, shape, or form do I find any of the procedures connected to shooting a flintlock rifle to be a ain in the pass.

 

[deermanok]

While I'm not a flintlock guy, I have been shooting cap locks since the 70's.
I've had fast twist, slow twist barrels, some in between.
Somehow I just don't see a fast twist flintlock rifle.
A patched round ball is the only projectile I can envision for a flinter.

 

[Nit Wit]

I agree with a Kibler, I would buy a .40 cal very accurate!
Nit Wit

 

[Matthew323]

I agree with a Kibler, I would buy a .40 cal very accurate!
Nit Wit

There was a stunning .40 cal Kibler for sale over on both our sister forum, and ALR for close to 2 weeks. It finally sold earlier today, after two price drops, for $1,500.00 plus shipping. That was a KILLER deal, considering that Jim supplied the builder with an incredible piece of northern cherry that had a mottled grain pattern similar to burl. Then, the builder added a toeplate, a steel Rupp-style patch box that worked surprisingly well on a southern mountain rifle, and some rudimentary incised carving behind the cheekpiece.

If you are interested in a Kibler rifle, and don't want to assemble it yourself, then keep an eye out for deals on The Muzzleloading Forum & The American Longrifles Forum. Over the past 6-8 months, more & more people with skills are putting these kits together, and embellishing them, to one degree or another, for eventual sale, not to keep.

The one that sold today was put together by a professional dulcimer builder.

 

[valkyrierdr]

The problem with most European modern flintlock mechanisms is that the manufacturers, ALL OF THEM, failed to do their due diligence, and are, for the most part, producing locks with improper geometries. There isn't a flintlock amongst them, with the sole exception of the Pedersoli Mortimer, that doesn't need MAJOR work done to it to bring it up to the standards of a L & R, Zorne, Chambers, Kibler, Laubach, etc.

When you consider how much a Pedersoli costs, sending a lock to someone like Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading, and potentially spending another $200.00, or more, to "FIX" what should already be correct, can be a bitter pill to swallow. Brad's prices start at $75.00 to tune up one of the better locks. According to him, even the CNC machined flintlocks from Kibler & Laubach will benefit from his attention. Lesser locks might need new parts to be fabricated; springs to be forged & tempered; lock plate holes to be plugged, redrilled, & reamed, cocks to be heated & bent, etc.

A good flintlock is a wonderful tool to experience. Once you have shot a smooth functioning flintlock with a good trigger (I prefer a single trigger), there is no going back.

I was incredibly fortunate to have my first longrifle be a semi-custom from Golden Age Arms Company in Ohio that I saved up for nearly a year to purchase in 1971 at age 17. It cost me $330.00, and had a well assembled, large Siler flintlock that was tuned beautifully.

So, I was spoiled rotten from the get go, and never looked back. Every time I tried a percussion rifle, or pistol, I found them to be too persnickety & fiddly.

EXACTLY how most people think of flintlocks. I have always found that shooting my flintlock longrifle to be one of the most relaxing pursuits that I have ever engaged in. There is a beauty, & seamlessness that just flows like yoga, or meditation when I am shooting a flintlock, especially by myself. In no way, shape, or form do I find any of the procedures connected to shooting a flintlock rifle to be a ain in the pass.

I couldn't have said it better myself. we are close in age. I got my first flintlock from Gene Davis when I was close to 30 in 1982. Never looked back. I can't imagine shooting anything else. I rendezvoued for 35 years. I have a Ken Netting smooth bore .62 and several others. The Davis is an Isaac Haynes .50 with a swamped barrel.

 

[Matthew323]

While I'm not a flintlock guy, I have been shooting cap locks since the 70's.
I've had fast twist, slow twist barrels, some in between.
Somehow I just don't see a fast twist flintlock rifle.
A patched round ball is the only projectile I can envision for a flinter.

You don't want to be standing right next to someone shooting a flintlock when they pull the trigger. BECAUSE, there is a jet of flame that SHOOTS out sideways from out of the touch hole AT LEAST 18"-24" away from the barrel. If you do stand too close, you will get BURNED.

The problem with putting lead conicals in a fast twist barrel that is equipped with a flintlock, is that the breech pressures in a flintlock rifle are LOWER, than in a percussion rifle. How much lower, depends upon a lot of variables. One thing that is for sure, is that a shooter is NOT going to achieve the same velocities, trajectories, & foot pounds of energy, assuming the exact same barrel & load data, from a flint breech, as they could from a closed percussion breech.

All of the above being TRUE, three additional factors creep in. First, is that breech pressures behind a conical are going to be MUCH HIGHER than for a patched ball in the same caliber bore. The heavier the bullet, the higher the breech pressures.

Second, is that those higher breech pressures are going to DRASTICALLY INCREASE the length of the flame jet that comes out of the touch hole.

Third, is that the higher breech pressures cause the flame jet to erode the touch hole FAR MORE QUICKLY than if shooting a patched ball. The smaller the bore, and the heavier the bullet, the higher the breech pressures, the hotter the flame jet, and the faster the erosion process takes place.

The same thing happens to the nipples in a percussion breech. Large bore conicals, .54 caliber and above, weighing 500 plus grains, have far lesser effect on a nipple's orifice, than a 400 grain conical in a .40 caliber bore does. The nipple in big bore musket might last for years without substantially effecting accuracy, while the nipple in the .40 caliber rifle might only last 4-5 shots, if made from steel, or stainless steel. Hardened AMPCO bronze will withstand erosion far better than most other materials currently available for the muzzleloader.

The problem is that most custom builders of flintlock rifles have gone almost exclusively to the Jim Chambers White Lightnin' touch hole liner in stainless steel as their standard go-to. Because they have a reputation for working so well.

To the point that most builders are very reluctant to install a RMC, 1/4"-28 threaded, AMPCO bronze, removable touch hole liner in ANY flintlock longrifle that they build.

Without the AMPCO bronze liner in place, and with its ability to be easily removed & replaced when the orifice erodes past the point where accuracy falls off, trying to shoot lead conicals out of a fast twist barrel equipped with a flintlock, would be an exercise in frustration.

Not worth the time and money unless you are going to be VERY DEDICATED, and willing to suffer some disappointments. Such as POSSIBLY NOT being able to shoot the heavier bullets for bore diameter out of a fast twist flintlock because the MASSIVE FLAME JET and subsequent erosion would make things too difficult.

 

[45-70]

know a fellow that shoots our inline matches now with one particulars , i do not know about but his works

 

[Matthew323]

know a fellow that shoots our inline matches now with one particulars , i do not know about but his works

I tried to get info on his rifle last year, especially the touch hole liner, and how often he needed to replace it during a match. His rifle/shooting, along with some phone conversations I have had with MtMonkey, is what is inspiring me to purchase a 4140 CM steel, Fast Twist, .45 caliber, 1:14" rate of twist, octagon-round barrel from Jason at Rice, and have him install a flint, hooked, long tang breech plug on the barrel.

I , {THINK} , notice the parantheses, that a shooter could possibly keep the flame jet to a reasonable length in such a flintlock barrel by shooting .40 caliber muzzleloading bullets out of the light blue Harvester Crush Rib sabots. Which the 1:14" rate of twist would easily allow.

It's when trying to shoot bullets over 300 grains (?) that I am speculating that the flame jet, and erosion would probably become unreasonable.

Without corresponding with someone that knows more than I do, I just go by extrapolating from personal experience, and what I have read from people on forums like this one. And, extrapolation can lead to a lot of false corners, because........

A + B doesn't always equal C.

 

[valkyrierdr]

While I'm not a flintlock guy, I have been shooting cap locks since the 70's.
I've had fast twist, slow twist barrels, some in between.
Somehow I just don't see a fast twist flintlock rifle.
A patched round ball is the only projectile I can envision for a flinter.

I can't envision shooting anything but round balls out of my flint locks. If I want to shoot sabots or conical bullets, I will get a Thompson cap lock

 

[valkyrierdr]

Best of luck to you. I am new to the game with a TC Hawken 50. I am getting the PRB to touch at 53 yards consistently with a 1:48 twist barrel (with a good rest). I would expect the same of a flintlock as long as you hold steady. Then again, what do I know. Never shot a flintlock but currently looking into them.

I am a flint guy now but I am sad that I ever sold my Thompson. The first one I had would shoot a group with all holes touching at 50 yards with round balls or the thompson maxi's

 

[rfd]

When it comes to traditional muzzleloaders, I only have and shoot flintlocks. Yes, I've had a gaggle of cap guns, they're just not my style and I prefer the guns of the 18th century ... 19th century guns for me are Sharps and Rollers. I've been building, maintaining, fixing, and shooter flinters since the late 50s (1950s, that is, not 1750s )

Unlike percussion locks, flint locks are far more quality dependent - for the very most part, you will get in return what you paid. Flint locks can, and should be, "tuned". Not a chore and easy for good locks, but a bear for not-so-good locks.

There are essentially two kinds of trad muzzleloader chambers - "patent" breech and flat faced breech. Almost all the offshore built guns, from T/C to Lyman to Pedersoli to Traditions to Investarms to etc etc etc, will have that patent breech, which is actually two chambers - the main chamber where the powder and patched ball live, and an ante-chamber that's before the main chamber.

If a gun is .50 bore, the ante-chamber will typically be a .30 something bore ...

Here's where it gets "interesting" ... the ante-chamber is a smaller diameter than the main chamber. It's like a flue and its design is to speed up ignition. Does it do that? Personally, I've never seen that to be true, but I do know that patent breech anti-chambers WILL REQUIRE attention for fouling control, sometimes after every shot. That means putting a brush on the end of yer ramrod and draping a patch over it in order to get down into that ante-chamber and clean it out of BP residue.

Yes, BP - black powder - you don't wanna use BP sub with flintlocks because that stuff is near useless for pan ignition (as the flint scrapes hot metal off the hammer steel to ignite what stuff ya stuck in the pan so that the stuff's heat will enter the touch hole and ignite the chamber powder).

I recommend onshore built flintlock rifles and smoothbores that feature classic flat faced breech plugs. Yes, not cheap. You will get in return what you paid for a Good Flintlock rifle/smoothbore. Good luck.

I built a Kibler Colonial flintlock in .54 caliber and the kit was just Excellent. I highly recommend Kibler kits. You will need some tooling and some crafting smarts, it ain't nothing like those offshore "kits" that are just plug 'n' play with a screwdriver.

 

[BrantSFGDS]

TVM made a fast twist flinter for me using a Colerain 50 cal 1:28 twist barrel. I have not shot it yet, because I'm deployed, but I expect it to shoot great with IdahoLewis' I-bullet. Call them and get what you want.