Help me understand…

[SuperKirby]

Ok , so to start let me show off my newly assembled Encore.



The frame started as a blued Encore. The barrel is a .45 1-20 twist Brux built by Mark Woodman. I sent the frame to him and he nitrided it as well so the whole thing matches and gets the added nitride protection. The scope is a 4-20x50 Burris Veracity in Vortex Pro Series low rings. The scope base is a pic rail from Mark.
This one hits all the spots for me.

So here’s my conundrum. I’m not new to muzzleloaders nor smokeless muzzleloaders but this one has me stumped and maybe a little frustrated. I can not get it to go boom sabotless. The last barrel I had was a stainless Brux Encore barrel from Arrowhead. Both plugs were 209 plugs. The last one shot sabotless loads beautifully. This one is smoother to load after Mark hand lapped it. I tried the same load of .58 gr H4198 and a smooth sized 275 gr Fury with a veggie wad. The Woodman barrel is just a bit tighter so the bullets have to be sized a hair smaller. I tried sizing them down to a comfortable one hand load. Those didn’t work so I tried a new can of powder in case that was the problem. No bang. Tried a tighter fit on the bullet. No bang. Tried a new pack of primers. No bang. Finally in a last ditch effort I tried a 195 gr Barnes in a Harvester light blue sabot. It went bang.
It was a relief to finally get it to at least fire but was pretty much dark so I didn’t try a second shot.
But still, why am I struggling here? I’m not entirely opposed to shooting sabots if I have to but I don’t want that to be my only option. Not such a big deal in the fall and winter but I don’t have time in the summer to wait 7-10 minutes between shots for the barrel to cool so I don’t blow sabots. The only other thing I can think of is to try some wool wads in hopes that they’ll maybe seal better? Hate to buy a pack of those only to find out they still don’t work.

Help me out here fellas.

 

[Black Locust]

Odd that a projectile, any projectile, would have an impact on primers and powder.

As long as the flash channel is clear, there should/would be ignition.

Gun powder doesn't care what's sitting on top of it.

 

[gle3105]

Now that is a Conundrum. Or an "En-Corenundrum" . Scratching head here.
Using same load after no discharge, did you try again with another primer?
If so to no avail?
Did the bullet jump / move any after no discharge?
Try another variable maybe. Like another type of powder.

 

[gle3105]

Odd that a projectile, any projectile, would have an impact on primers and powder.

As long as the flash channel is clear, there should be ignition.

Gun powder doesn't care what's sitting on top of it.

"Gun powder doesn't care what's sitting on top of it."

Ever shoot blackhorn209?

 

[bronko220002]

When I started with my first SML everything was going fine load, bang repeat. This was when I was first testing loads and I did not yet have a reference mark on my ramrod except for the "do not go below" mark.
I guess I wasn't paying attention but I kept getting the primer to go off but no bang! I even pulled the BP to check for blockage.
Turns out my bullet was off the charge. I found that put after reinstalling the BP and checked the seating. Bullet was off the charge about 1". Praise God it didn't go bang because I may not be here to tell of it.
I am much more observant now and have a reference mark.

 

[ar91599]

I have the same gun but with a Hankins brux I shoot 62g h4198 300 aeromax it has went bang every time mine is size good one hand push

 

[ar91599]

Mine does have a wool patch under it also

 

[ElDiablo]

Weird. Which primers? What size bushing?

I’m hearing about this more and more. Knock on wood - I’ve never had a single ignition issue using 10-12 different smokeless powders with sabots and BtB in five different SMLs.

Nice rifle BTW!

 

[SuperKirby]

Powder burned but not explosively so. In fact on shot 4 today I was able to watch the bullet tumble down range through the scope and bounce at about 60-70 yards. Didn’t sound like anything more than a primer pop and no felt recoil. Otherwise depending on which trigger pull all would move the bullet, sometimes almost completely out of the barrel, sometimes all the way out of the barrel, and once only a couple inches. Interestingly a couple of the times the bullet left the barrel the was stayed in, a little burned around the edges and with a few grains of powder behind it.

I’ve tried both h and i 4198. Don’t have any others and haven’t seen any around. I’ve tried W209s and CCI209M. Don’t know what size bushing hole Mark uses but it’s a brand new plug so can’t see that being the problem. It seems to me like it would have to pressure related, as in the wad isn’t sealing around the bullet well enough but don’t know why. Another member said he’d send me some wool wads to try to see if those deal better. Otherwise I’m stumped.

 

[MrTom]

Is the bushing stainless or carbide? The stainless bushing has a smaller hole I think. I'm not certain which size of hole the carbide my Patriot has but it goes boom every time, all the time. I think there is a .031 and a .035 carbide bushing for Woodman's barrels and rifles. Maybe contact Mark about which bushing you might have based on you experiences here. The hole size might be your onus.

 

[gle3105]

Sure sounds what you probably know. Powder not igniting. Primer pushing bullet out .
Bullet seal? Polywad OP Or a couple of veggie wads. ( just to see )
A booster powder needed maybe?
As in a duplex load.Like 5744 / H335.
Look up RB’s loads.

 

[smokeeter]

I don't think you're getting a good enough seal , try to double up on the wads, or cut the base off of a sabot and try that under the bullet. It should point you in the right direction.

 

[Shorty]

I have had the same problem. Mine was cured using a veggie wad and resizing my bullet to make more loading force pushing the bullet down the barrel to get a better gas seal…that is with fury bullets. What kind of bullets are you using?

 

[MrTom]

What kind of bullets are you using?

275 grain Fury, smooth sized I believe he said.

 

[brad502a]

"Gun powder doesn't care what's sitting on top of it."

Ever shoot blackhorn209?

Yes I have without issue.

 

[ElDiablo]

Don’t know what size bushing hole Mark uses but it’s a brand new plug so can’t see that being the problem.

I think there is a .031 and a .035 carbide bushing for Woodman's barrels and rifles.

Could be .30”, .35” or .40” bushing. Mark makes all of those. I’d measure it to see what you have.

 

[SuperKirby]

Bullet is a a smooth sized 275 gr. Fury star Tip. Bullet is sized to .4485 for comfortable one handed loading, .4495 took some oomph to get it down the bore. Both had the same result.

I was not aware of difference in his bushing sizes. I don’t know that i even have a way to measure that. Perhaps he’ll chime in if he remembers. What bushing would i want? Smaller would hold more pressure but bigger would get the primer blast to the powder faster.

I’m really really hoping these wool wads fix the problems. It’s good to hear that A) I’m not alone and B) I’m on the right track. Thought i was losing my mind.

 

[ElDiablo]

I was not aware of difference in his bushing sizes. I don’t know that i even have a way to measure that. Perhaps he’ll chime in if he remembers. What bushing would i want? Smaller would hold more pressure but bigger would get the primer blast to the powder faster.

Sounds like you don’t have a set of torch tip cleaners and a caliper?

 

[MrTom]

I "think" my carbide bushing is a .30-.31 and I get superb ignition with a sabot. I don't mess with bullet to bore stuff.

 

[capttoddjones]

I had the same problem this winter. I added a veggie wad and it went boom.