Help me understand…

[The long rider]

Years ago I had a 458" Pac-Nor barrel on a Rem 700 ML. that acted the same way. I had ordered it for a friend in chrome moly to match his blued action. Once I received it and got it head spaced correctly I sent it off to be mirror polished and blued. It was a thing of beauty. Once I fitted a nice piece of walnut to it I scoped it and took it out to sight it in.
I smooth sized a handful of Parker B.E. 275 gr. bullets and used H4198 powder along with Federal 209 primers with a veggie wad. On the first shot only the primer went off, so I pulled the breechplug and pushed the bullet out. The powder was clumped together looking kid of sticky. I tried everything I had on hand that day and the best I could get was a Hornady 225 gr. flex tip bullet shot out about 10 feet and hit the dirt.. I also had another gun on hand that day using the same powder and primers and performed flawlessly. I did notice when pushing the bullet down the barrel that would not fire there were a few tight spots.
The next day or so I called Pac-Nor with my problem and sent it back. about two weeks later Casey called me and said the barrel had an inconsistent spots of .0001" and they replaced it. I received a bbl. but it was un blued and I had too have the bbl. polished and blued, but the new bbl. worked as it should.
Speed the clock up 12 years or so, I would slug the bore from breech end feeling for loose spots and then again from the muzzle end. If everything seems good I would try a bushing with a larger opening, 035" try shooting just a primer after dark and see how much flame you get coming out of the bbl. If you see a foot of flame, it's not the breechplug or the primer. I always use Federal magnum primers.
Just to give it every chance you should have about 30 lbs. of pressure while pushing the bullet down on a fouled bore. To get the bore fouled without shooting powder, just fire a few primers only that should do it. Set the butt on a bathroom scale while pushing the bullet down the bore until you get the feel of it.
After all that, I would contact the place you purchased it and have them look into your issue. Good Luck!!

 

[davek42]

Powder burned but not explosively so. In fact on shot 4 today I was able to watch the bullet tumble down range through the scope and bounce at about 60-70 yards. Didn’t sound like anything more than a primer pop and no felt recoil. Otherwise depending on which trigger pull all would move the bullet, sometimes almost completely out of the barrel, sometimes all the way out of the barrel, and once only a couple inches. Interestingly a couple of the times the bullet left the barrel the was stayed in, a little burned around the edges and with a few grains of powder behind it.

I’ve tried both h and i 4198. Don’t have any others and haven’t seen any around. I’ve tried W209s and CCI209M. Don’t know what size bushing hole Mark uses but it’s a brand new plug so can’t see that being the problem. It seems to me like it would have to pressure related, as in the wad isn’t sealing around the bullet well enough but don’t know why. Another member said he’d send me some wool wads to try to see if those deal better. Otherwise I’m stumped.

Call mark tell him whats going on. He may have an answer.

 

[SuperKirby]

Years ago I had a 458" Pac-Nor barrel on a Rem 700 ML. that acted the same way. I had ordered it for a friend in chrome moly to match his blued action. Once I received it and got it head spaced correctly I sent it off to be mirror polished and blued. It was a thing of beauty. Once I fitted a nice piece of walnut to it I scoped it and took it out to sight it in.
I smooth sized a handful of Parker B.E. 275 gr. bullets and used H4198 powder along with Federal 209 primers with a veggie wad. On the first shot only the primer went off, so I pulled the breechplug and pushed the bullet out. The powder was clumped together looking kid of sticky. I tried everything I had on hand that day and the best I could get was a Hornady 225 gr. flex tip bullet shot out about 10 feet and hit the dirt.. I also had another gun on hand that day using the same powder and primers and performed flawlessly. I did notice when pushing the bullet down the barrel that would not fire there were a few tight spots.
The next day or so I called Pac-Nor with my problem and sent it back. about two weeks later Casey called me and said the barrel had an inconsistent spots of .0001" and they replaced it. I received a bbl. but it was un blued and I had too have the bbl. polished and blued, but the new bbl. worked as it should.
Speed the clock up 12 years or so, I would slug the bore from breech end feeling for loose spots and then again from the muzzle end. If everything seems good I would try a bushing with a larger opening, 035" try shooting just a primer after dark and see how much flame you get coming out of the bbl. If you see a foot of flame, it's not the breechplug or the primer. I always use Federal magnum primers.
Just to give it every chance you should have about 30 lbs. of pressure while pushing the bullet down on a fouled bore. To get the bore fouled without shooting powder, just fire a few primers only that should do it. Set the butt on a bathroom scale while pushing the bullet down the bore until you get the feel of it.
After all that, I would contact the place you purchased it and have them look into your issue. Good Luck!!

That sounds like about what I’ve got going on. Sometimes the powder is almost all gone and sometimes I’m guessing about half the powder is still there. This morning I found two was from when I pushed partial charges out. They show burning around the edges as if the hot gasses were escaping around them.

I thought about calling or emailing Mark but I don’t want to bother him anymore. I ordered the barrel last May and wasn’t prepared for the wait. I do believe he got pretty tired of my emails. When I got the barrel I couldn’t get bullets down the barrel. It seemed like there was a pinch in the middle and I was having to hammer them through or back out. Mark had me send him the barrel back and he hand polished it. It’s smooth sailing now though he said it was very minor. I don’t guess I know what counts as minor and what a bad barrel feels like. Anyway, Mark is super busy and I don’t want to bother him anymore than I have to.

 

[birdog]

From what I have heard about Mark I think he would like to know you are having issues and he would be happy to help.

 

[ElDiablo]

I think a wad is likely going to solve your problems.

 

[SuperKirby]

I think a wad is likely going to solve your problems.

I think you’re right. I hope so. I’m at the only thing I can come up with that makes sense.
If it doesn’t work I’ll probably send Mark another email.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I had a similar issue with my savage and rl7
Added a wool wad and it goes bang every time.
It was really bad till I got my charge above 60 gn the bullets would not obturate.
Shot like a brown bess. If it went off
Now with a 300 dynamo I'm getting 2650 ft sec and SDs in the teens and sub moa
The wad solved all my issues on advise from Eldiablo need to run some furry 275s thru it and see how those group.
I bought a 12mm punch and make them for a fraction of a penny each I made 50 last night in about 5 minutes well worth the effort. That's fir a different thread though

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Be careful I had a bullet go 15 inches up the barrel with only the primmer going off.
I would check every time with your ramrod
If you get a FTF

 

[SuperKirby]

The very first "pfft" I got sounded like a primer pop and nothing else. My first thought was to keep the gun pointed down range a few seconds to make sure I wasn't in for a surprise and then prime and try again. At literally the last second before pulling the trigger I thought better of it and decided I should check the bullet. Turns out it was several inches up the barrel. That was a scary "almost" and I've been very careful to check after every trigger pull.

 

[The long rider]

I would send that it back and have them either fix the problem or replace the barrel. It should not be that complicated, Jeff Hankins never uses a wad of any kind and his guns go off every time. I stopped using veggie wads in my .45 but still do use a wool wad in my .40 just because it is recommended for better accuracy. I have shot it without wads when I fogot to put them in my shooter bag on the way to my range. Check this youtube video out showing Jeff loading bullets that just fall down the bore and still go off.

High Performance Encore Smokeless Muzzle Loader​

 

[ENCORE50A]

I would send that it back and have them either fix the problem or replace the barrel. It should not be that complicated, Jeff Hankins never uses a wad of any kind and his guns go off every time. I stopped using veggie wads in my .45 but still do use a wool wad in my .40 just because it is recommended for better accuracy. I have shot it without wads when I fogot to put them in my shooter bag on the way to my range. Check this youtube video out showing Jeff loading bullets that just fall down the bore and still go off.

High Performance Encore Smokeless Muzzle Loader​

At what he suggests is the proper loading force, I would suggest that's likely 20+lbs.

 

[SuperKirby]

I'm not ready to give up and send the barrel back again. I've been shooting muzzleloaders long enough to know that every barrel is different and all have quirks and intricacies. I am willing to try as many things as I can before I give up on it. I'm ok with shooting a wad and I'm willing to play around with sizing bullets. I'm not ok with being forced to shoot sabots. I just don't have the time to sit on a range for 10 minutes between shots on a hot day waiting for the barrel to cool enough.
The wool wads should be here tomorrow and I'm hoping to get home from work early enough that I can try a couple shots to see if it goes boom.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I'm not ready to give up and send the barrel back again. I've been shooting muzzleloaders long enough to know that every barrel is different and all have quirks and intricacies. I am willing to try as many things as I can before I give up on it. I'm ok with shooting a wad and I'm willing to play around with sizing bullets. I'm not ok with being forced to shoot sabots. I just don't have the time to sit on a range for 10 minutes between shots on a hot day waiting for the barrel to cool enough.
The wool wads should be here tomorrow and I'm hoping to get home from work early enough that I can try a couple shots to see if it goes boom.

Think you will be surprised at the results.
I think that a wool wad ads to the seal and holding preasure of the bullet on top of the powder charge. Have friend that just went thru a similar scenario. Tried everything ended up changing powders.
So yes every barrel has its quirks.
I'm going thru something different in that my bore is tight with the bullet I want with the sabot I want to run.
I'm getting over seal and a historicly known load is way to hot so I'm having to back down. Which goes to show that we are in an area of development in this sport where we don't yet have all the answers yet. Let us know how it went I'm curious for sure what you find.

 

[SuperKirby]

Must be my lucky day. Got home from work and the wads came in the mail - a day early. Finally got the twins in bed and decided it needed to be tested. I loaded up my same components as last time - 57 gr. i4198, wool wad, 275 Fury Star Tip smooth sized to .449. Primer was a CCI 209M. Walked out to the backstop and BANG! Woohoo! Loaded up and tried again, same load, and another bang, just as it should. Decided 2 shots at 2115 was probably enough. Neighbors are pretty laid back but still.
To say I feel relieved would be an understatement. I need to put a lot of shots through it in a lot of different conditions before I feel like I can say for sure it’s a problem solved but I feel immensely better knowing we’re going in the right direction.

 

[gle3105]

Kinda what I figured what was happening. Seal. Glad you got it worked out.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Must be my lucky day. Got home from work and the wads came in the mail - a day early. Finally got the twins in bed and decided it needed to be tested. I loaded up my same components as last time - 57 gr. i4198, wool wad, 275 Fury Star Tip smooth sized to .449. Primer was a CCI 209M. Walked out to the backstop and BANG! Woohoo! Loaded up and tried again, same load, and another bang, just as it should. Decided 2 shots at 2115 was probably enough. Neighbors are pretty laid back but still.
To say I feel relieved would be an understatement. I need to put a lot of shots through it in a lot of different conditions before I feel like I can say for sure it’s a problem solved but I feel immensely better knowing we’re going in the right direction.

Sure sounds like your on the right road now.
Looking forward to hearing more results
.449 seems awful loose to me.
Even for a tight barrel. I'd suspect .4995 or .450 might give better results.
A few tenths can make a big difference

 

[MrTom]

This makes sense. I know with my V2 Optima pistol and Accura V2 using Bh209, both guns need to have the plain sabots to get the full power of the load utilized. Crush rib sabots in both will see the guns go off, but the difference between the crush rib loads with the same bullets/charges as the plain sabot is enormous. Loading the plain sabot shows significantly more resistance than with the crush ribs.

Granted, BH is no a true smokeless powder but its closer to being smokeless than any other sub and it's loading needs and characteristics are near to smokeless. If the seal using a looser sabot is enough to change the behavior of the BH then any sealing issue with true smokeless would likely get magnified.

 

[bronko220002]

Powder burned but not explosively so. In fact on shot 4 today I was able to watch the bullet tumble down range through the scope and bounce at about 60-70 yards. Didn’t sound like anything more than a primer pop and no felt recoil. Otherwise depending on which trigger pull all would move the bullet, sometimes almost completely out of the barrel, sometimes all the way out of the barrel, and once only a couple inches. Interestingly a couple of the times the bullet left the barrel the was stayed in, a little burned around the edges and with a few grains of powder behind it.

I’ve tried both h and i 4198. Don’t have any others and haven’t seen any around. I’ve tried W209s and CCI209M. Don’t know what size bushing hole Mark uses but it’s a brand new plug so can’t see that being the problem. It seems to me like it would have to pressure related, as in the wad isn’t sealing around the bullet well enough but don’t know why. Another member said he’d send me some wool wads to try to see if those deal better. Otherwise I’m stumped.

Do you have any 45 cal sabots? If so try cutting the petals off a coiple and use them like a sub base. They will give you a good seal

 

[davek42]

Ok , so to start let me show off my newly assembled Encore.

View attachment 42193View attachment 42194

The frame started as a blued Encore. The barrel is a .45 1-20 twist Brux built by Mark Woodman. I sent the frame to him and he nitrided it as well so the whole thing matches and gets the added nitride protection. The scope is a 4-20x50 Burris Veracity in Vortex Pro Series low rings. The scope base is a pic rail from Mark.
This one hits all the spots for me.

So here’s my conundrum. I’m not new to muzzleloaders nor smokeless muzzleloaders but this one has me stumped and maybe a little frustrated. I can not get it to go boom sabotless. The last barrel I had was a stainless Brux Encore barrel from Arrowhead. Both plugs were 209 plugs. The last one shot sabotless loads beautifully. This one is smoother to load after Mark hand lapped it. I tried the same load of .58 gr H4198 and a smooth sized 275 gr Fury with a veggie wad. The Woodman barrel is just a bit tighter so the bullets have to be sized a hair smaller. I tried sizing them down to a comfortable one hand load. Those didn’t work so I tried a new can of powder in case that was the problem. No bang. Tried a tighter fit on the bullet. No bang. Tried a new pack of primers. No bang. Finally in a last ditch effort I tried a 195 gr Barnes in a Harvester light blue sabot. It went bang.
It was a relief to finally get it to at least fire but was pretty much dark so I didn’t try a second shot.
But still, why am I struggling here? I’m not entirely opposed to shooting sabots if I have to but I don’t want that to be my only option. Not such a big deal in the fall and winter but I don’t have time in the summer to wait 7-10 minutes between shots for the barrel to cool so I don’t blow sabots. The only other thing I can think of is to try some wool wads in hopes that they’ll maybe seal better? Hate to buy a pack of those only to find out they still don’t work.

Help me out here fellas.

I have 2 questions
1have you checked the flash hole for obstruction.
2 have you tired firing a primer with rifle unloaded to see how the primer reacts.
Just my thoughts.

 

[SuperKirby]

Breech plug was clear and I truly don’t think the breech plug is the problem. I think it’s a seal issue and for whatever reason the barrel just doesn’t want to seal. The wool was seemed to make a difference though more testing is definitely required.