HELP WITH BH209

[YellowHammer]

I am confused as to bh209 measurement. I want to shoot 110 grain charge. So I started out using volume. At 120 grains and I was 4 inches high and shot a 3" group at 50 yards. So I weighed 3 charges of 120g/v. They varied anywhere from 88g to102g/W . So then I looked up that 84g/w was supposed to be 120g/v. I decided to step down to 110g charge. Qich is supposed to be 77g/w. So I sat down with three weighed charges of 77g/w and proceeded to shoot the best group of my life. So if ylu don't think you should weigh bh209 I highly disagree. I will even go as far as to say it's dangerous not to. I mean one of those 120g/v charges I shot had to be 102g/w bc my butler creek flip up scope cap slapped me in the eyebrow and I have 4" of eye releif!!! Your telling me that 120 grain charge??? I think not. And my accuracy skyrocketed after weighing. What I'm wondering is are my conversions right? I need to know for muzzle velocity to plug in to my nikon spot on app. I should be around 2050 fps. My setup is this:

Cva optima v2 26" bbl.
110g/v or 77g/w bh209
250grain smackdown sst.

Please let me know if anyone has chronograph d this load I will try and get one myself but I prolly won't have the money. I am going to verify my LOAD drop at the range of course but I need to have the numbers to back it up. That way I can quickly see if it's right or wrong. I can find this load info at traditions website but it's for the 120bh209. And I can find this on blackhorns website but I've heard those numbers are slightly inflated. Please help me as I am trying to gear up toward whitetail season that is quickly approaching.

Thank u for your time.-T.Brady

 

[rangerod]

This subject has just about been beat to death on the forum. Here's my take for what it's worth. If you examine the particles of BH you see that they are tiny cylinder shaped. These particles vary in size. Smaller size settles tighter then larger size. This is why imo volume measurement is inaccurate. Your experience with a great group through weight of the charge is the same as mine. I weigh all my charges and I believe everyone should. Your 2050 velocity should be really close for a 250 grn saboted bullet.

 

[Leigh Clambakes]

Without a chrono, I think you can use bullet drop to "swag" your velocity, if you have some distance to shoot.
Does your range have 100, 200, and 300 yard firing lines designated? With a 100 yard zero, you can reverse engineer your muzzle velocity by the measured drop you get at known distances.
Do you have a laser range finder? Or a 100' tape measure? Verify your distances, and measure your bullet's drop over distance.
And yes, as has been beat to death, using a weight measured load will help eliminate tolerances in your volumetric loads. You know what tolerance is? Acceptable error. Reduce that error to as low as you can with your tools and abilities. You've already demonstrated to yourself the effectiveness of it.

 

[GM54-120]

Weight is a constant variable. 77gr by weight is always 77gr by weight. Its up to you to alter the weight needed/wanted depending on the lot# of powder you got. BH209 can vary weight to volume based on the lot #.

Volumetric can be but not as constant as weight when talking about a granular material. With that said you can get extremely good volume drops from something like a Redding 3BR or one of the other "powder drop" measuring devices and its a whole lot faster than weighing.

 

[SuperKirby]

Weight is a constant variable. 77gr by weight is always 77gr by weight. Its up to you to alter the weight needed/wanted depending on the lot# of powder you got. BH209 can vary weight to volume based on the lot #.

Volumetric can be but not as constant as weight when talking about a granular material. With that said you can get extremely good volume drops from something like a Redding 3BR or one of the other "powder drop" measuring devices and its a whole lot faster than weighing.

I still disagree. Here's why...

1) We know that weight changes with humidity. If I weigh charges on a hot sticky day in the middle of summer, then weigh the same weight for my cold, dry December hunt, the amount of powder will be different. Which will be correct?

2) It's my understanding that each granule of powder burns from the outside in. For each granule, that amounts to surface area. Combine all those surface areas into a "tube" - volume measure or barrel - and you get volume. The most consistent way (though admittedly impossible) would be to to measure a total combined surface area of each granule and replicate that.

Now I admit that I don't believe that any of this truly matters unless one is shooting long ranges for competition accuracy. More important is consistent repetition with one's chosen measurement method. But I do find it an interesting conversation.

 

[GM54-120]

Weigh 10 charges
Measure 10 in volumetric
Now weigh the 10 you measured.

I will wager the 10 that were weighed will be closer in weight than the 10 that were measured. The weighed 10 will always be virtually identical in weight. Every load i weigh goes in a tube and sealed. Those sealed tubes go in a box that is also sealed. If they do absorb any humidity they will still all be virtually the same weight.....It starts constant and ends constant.

Getting that kind of repeatability using volume requires far more practice or a good measuring device like a Redding or Harrels. I just push a button and in a few seconds im done. All my loads are within a couple tenths of a grain at the worst.

Not cheap but its super easy to use.

 

[HC]

Unlike other bp subs, BH209 is non-hygroscopic. If kept in air tight containers it shouldn’t absorb little if any moisture.

 

[GM54-120]

You guys that dont want to spend over around $200 should look at the Uniflow/Redding/Harrel type powder measures. You still need a scale to set them and may need to do 2 drops but its super fast to use. The Harrels is stupid expensive but its a true match grade product.

IIRC Ron was using the 3BR, ive forgotten what he is using now. It might be the RCBS Uniflow or Hornady.
https://www.rcbs.com/priming-and-po...echanical/competition-powder-measure/205.html

 

[billyboy*]

I also use the RCBS Chargemaster Combo 1500 (Less Spillage that the Brass Volume Measurer)
I also have the Redding 3BR. Curious if the Drum is Large Enough for 84 grains in one drop?

 

[sabotloader]

I also use the RCBS Chargemaster Combo 1500 (Less Spillage that the Brass Volume Measurer)
I also have the Redding 3BR. Curious if the Drum is Large Enough for 84 grains in one drop?

One suggestion I would like to remind everyone, and GM54-120 has already stated. EACH lot of BH-209 may have a different weight to volume ratio. The standard 84 grain by weight should never get you in trouble but it will not always produce the same pressure or velocity from lot to lot.

I am not a prolific BH shooter, for myself it is just to expensive, and that is not to say that it isn't a great powder. And as "billyboy" posted - spillage is one of my big concerns with BH - so I do capture my spillage when filling the volume measure! Not so much when I shoot T7 or other subs.

I have been using the same volume measure for 20 years and "I" believe I have become very good at the procedure. So, as I started to use BH I always used my standard volume measure as I have always done. One thing that might need to brought for is that volume measurements of BP and BP subs, even though BH is really a smokeless powder diluted with a bit of Sulphur and Potassium, are not as susceptible to a few grains of powder - either way - to show a real difference in pressure or velocity at the muzzle. So in most cases volume measuring works fine for the average shooter/hunter. In my experimenting, it takes 5 to 7 grains difference in powder volume (with BH and more with the other subs) to make any noticeable difference in velocity at the muzzle.

The real key in volume measuring is to be CONSISTENT in what you do.

Now with all that said I would be the first to say were I shooting targets for a living and money - I would certainly go to the scales after figuring out what weight I would be shooting. And even then I really doubt that I would be shoot 120grV or 8?grW loads. I would have to spend a good deal of time experimenting with which bullet and which load.

As a hunter, recreational shooter I shoot 120 grainV loads with a good deal of testing. Well that is not always true either, as I live in Idaho and have to shoot full bore lead during ML season for which the powder load drops significantly.

Here is a table I started construction 2019. Each time I would load my powder tubes I would measure powder loads from my volume measure and then weigh the loads. From that and with a little math I could compute the weight measurement. You can see this was constructed using BH from the early lots of the powder. Today using the later lots the table would be modified.

I am currently using lot number 22 of BH and it showing a weight of 86grW to equal 120grV

 

[ENCORE50A]

Black Powder Measure | RCBS

 

[MrTom]

I will wager the 10 that were weighed will be closer in weight than the 10 that were measured. The weighed 10 will always be virtually identical in weight. Every load i weigh goes in a tube and sealed. Those sealed tubes go in a box that is also sealed. If they do absorb any humidity they will still all be virtually the same weight.....It starts constant and ends constant.
MEDIA=youtube]0kR0jq_xu1k[/MEDIA]

I'm on board 100% with this simply because I want to eliminate the charge as a factor in finding out why things aren't going so well if I get to that point. I believe that most here are either weighers or measurers for their own personal reasons. The bullets I hunt with in my 50's have been shot using charges that are 2 grains apart from each other starting at 63 weighed grains. My Accura shoots an even 77 weighed grains best while the Optima pistol shoots best with an even 63 grains weighed. For all intents and purposes I would feel fine with a volume measure of either charge should I need to make one in a pinch, but like GM I tube each charge and seal it. I have roughly 50 of each charge weight in their own boxes that I use for hunting so its doubtful I'll need to make an emergency charge.

My personal thoughts on whether to weigh or volume measure is a personal thing. I also am of the camp that if one is hunting inside 200 yards the measure is fine for throwing the charge. If one is shooting long range or competition, then I think they are likely to benefit from weighing to eliminate the discrepancies found in measuring. Other than peace of mind, I don't see where weighing will help much when in a stand with a 150 yard window. I like that peace of mind so I weigh, but in a pinch , and as I have alluded to, I wouldn't hesitate to pour a load if I had to.

Bh209 has a bit of a positive edge over T7 granular powders in primer fired inlines, but both are higher performance powders when compared to pyrodex powder or the blacks in the same inline guns. Weighing the 209 and T7 granulars will eliminate the little deviations on charge size for those who wish to take the time, but for the 150 yard hunter the volume is fine. Its just a choice everyone makes for themself.

 

[YellowHammer]

Thanks for all the replies, you give me ALOT of priceless information really bc its al things you only learn from experience. Myself I will weigh. Not bc I'm a target shooter but bc I'm obsessed with shooting tight groups. Idk why it's just the thing to do these days qith quarantine and what not. But I have another question that I just can't figure out.WHY DO PYRODEX RS AND BLACKHORN HAVE THE SAME CONVERSION RATE FOR WEIGHT TO VOLUME @.7 WHEN BH209 IS SUPPOSED TO BE 15 PERCENT STRONGER? WHAT AM I MISSING?

 

[ronlaughlin]

The conversion rate is the ratio between volume, and weight. The conversion rate is the ratio between volume, and weight. Conversion rate reveals nothing about the energy contained in the chemical bonds.

Energy of powder, gasoline, sugar, etc. is stored in the chemical bonds...............

 

[YellowHammer]

The conversion rate is the ratio between volume, and weight. The conversion rate is the ratio between volume, and weight. Conversion rate reveals nothing about the energy contained in the chemical bonds.

Energy of powder, gasoline, sugar, etc. is stored in the chemical bonds...............

I think what I was wondering was why they were both around .7 for volume to weight conversion, I think I figured it out it's bc bh209 is heavier than pyrodex. So of you weigh out two identical weighed charges there is less bh209 there bc its heavier. That being said if the conversion for v-w is .7 for pyrodex that means that bh209 must be 15% heavier than pyrodex I think. But do you see why it is confusing. Bc at first it looks like they are the same weight BUT bh209 is supposed to be stronger.

 

[YellowHammer]

Anybody tried the carnivore bullets by smackdown and are they just rebranded berry's blue diamond?

 

[ronlaughlin]

see why it is confusing. Bc at first it looks like they are the same weight BUT bh209 is supposed to be stronger.

Equal volumes of these powders are exactly the same weight. This is because ratio of volume to weight is the same for both powders.

Blackhorn does not have more energy because it weighs more.

Blackhorn has more energy, because of it's chemical composition, and how it burns.

Kinda like how acetylene has more energy than propane. More energy is stored in the chemical bonds.

 

[YellowHammer]

I just can't understand why ppl say to use 15 percent less T7 loose, but no one says that about blackhorn and they are similar in performance. I'm just missing something there. O well I'll figure it out sooner or later. May have to do with the 120g being max load.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Who knows why people say what they say.



Here is the results of a trip out shooting through a chronograph. Two different powders were shot. One powder shot was Triple seven FF. The other powder shot was Blackhorn.

Both powders were shot by the same rifle, using the same primers. The same bullet was shot in the same sabot in this same rifle. Eighty one weighed grains of both powder was shot.

Same rifle. Same bullet. Same sabot. Same primer. Same powder weight.



The average speed of the bullet shot by 81 weighed grain of 777 is 1953 fps.

The average bullet speed shot by 81 weighed grain of Blackhorn is 2040 fps.