Blackhorn 209 by weight is not measuring up to volume line

[Impalanator]

Hi all,
I'm new to muzzleloading and I'm trying different powder/bullet combos for better accuracy. I want to try blackhorn 209 powder (my muzzleloader supports it). I am using a "MAXUS Precision Pocket Scale 200g x 0.01g" that I bought off Amazon and has a grains setting (but strangely shows up at gn instead of gr). I bought "ELK Muzzleloader Powder Charge Measuring Tubes" also off Amazon. I am filling charge tubes up with 70 gr by weight, 77 gr by weight, and 84 gr by weight (I'm aware this is the maximum safe load). I put the powder pan on the scale and turned it on so it zeros out with the pan on it. I fill the power pan with 84 gr of blackhorn 209, but when I pour the powder into the charge tube, it only fills to around 97 grains by volume. I expected it to be close to the 120 grains by volume mark. Am I doing something wrong here or should this not be close to the 120 grains by volume mark?




Thanks,
Impalanator

 

[michiganmuzzy]

you should never trust those pre-marked tubes. At least until you have checked them against a better volume measure device. I like the brass style.
https://a.co/d/gamlt8g

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Then weigh out ten volumes and get an avg weight for that specific bottle of bh209

 

[earlwb]

Unless you are going for high precision shooting you use volume not weight for Measuring the charges. The instructions for Bh209 also say to use volume and not weight. The weight will vary from lot to lot when they manufacture the propellant. But the volume tends to stay the same.

But as mentioned it is a good idea to verify that the plastic charge tubes are measuring OK.

 

[ElDiablo]

This is a common question among newer shooters. The answer is that those tubes are not accurately marked for volume. I’d go so far as to say the marks are for looks only.

Definitely do as @michiganmuzzy says, get a good brass measure and measure out 10 charges, weigh each and average the weights. If you’re set on weighing. I believe for most guys it is sufficient to volume measure. (You’ll likely find that a max volume charge of 120 gr isn’t 84 gr weighed.) The recent lots of BH209 are heavier.

 

[Impalanator]

you should never trust those pre-marked tubes. At least until you have checked them against a better volume measure device. I like the brass style.
https://a.co/d/gamlt8g
View attachment 42471

I have this brass measure and didn’t even think about this, great idea. I will set the brass measure to 120 and weigh each charge.

Thanks much!

 

[anonymouscowherd]

The "grains volume" standard happens to line up quite close to water (15.4gn/cc for water, 14.7gn/cc for real black 2Fg per Lee's diagrams/charts) so you can do a bit of math and use a actual calibrate graduated cylinder to make sure things are lining up the way you expect.

Of course, "weight by volume" will depend on how you load/tamp/pack the meausre, so consistency is important there. It is amazing how much some powder can settle with just a few shakes....

 

[MrTom]

Unless you are going for high precision shooting you use volume not weight for Measuring the charges. The instructions for Bh209 also say to use volume and not weight. The weight will vary from lot to lot when they manufacture the propellant. But the volume tends to stay the same.

But as mentioned it is a good idea to verify that the plastic charge tubes are measuring OK.

Volume measure has a ton of variables to it. Anyone wanting to eliminate any or all of those variables for any reason will weigh their charges and they do not need to be long range shooters to justify weighing.

 

[Impalanator]

I got my average weight based on the brass powder charge and it is only 3 grains by weight higher than the calculation. I did 100 grains this time and the average weight was 73. I verified the markings on the clear tube are off by 20 grains. It shows 20 grains less than there really are so if someone went by that, they would over charge their muzzle loader. Wow these seem dangerous.

Thanks everyone for the help, it is much appreciated!

 

[ElDiablo]

There’s some margin for error. Even 150 grains volume is unlikely to “blow the gun up” but the recoil gets very unpleasant at that charge weight.

 

[brad502a]

I am sure that the tubes were marked with extreme accuracy. That is why they were for sale on Amazon. A good reputable powder measure is a tool for a lifetime of use.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

If you tap the vial, the powder will settle and give you are different measurement of volume.

The weight of the propellant is going to give a more accurate measurement of the stuff that goes "Bang". That allows us to ignore the amount of air in the vial around the granules of propellant.

When you go to your doctor to get a physical, they will ask you to step on a scale.

.

 

[MrTom]

When you go to your doctor to get a physical, they will ask you to step on a scale.

.

When I show up at the doc's office they tell me to have a seat while they get a bigger scale. lol

 

[earlwb]

I was trying to remember what the graduation marks on the plastic tubes actually measures. Was it water, or black powder, or something else? It eludes me at the moment though. I think that the marks did work for something. I am sure the little inserts and instructions that came with some of the tubes explained it, but I threw those away ages ago for my tubes.

 

[mm106807]

Those tubes are wildly inaccurate. Use a proper black powder brass measure. I use those tubes for 209 and I prefer to weigh the powder.

 

[ElDiablo]

These are my choice in pop-top Bh209 tubes. (Better deal than the branded tubes on Amazon and elsewhere and Lane is a good dude to do business with.) But most of the time I use screw top tubes.

 

[Impalanator]

There’s some margin for error. Even 150 grains volume is unlikely to “blow the gun up” but the recoil gets very unpleasant at that charge weight.

Thats great to know, I’ve wondered how much more it would take for the muzzle loader to actually fail.

 

[ElDiablo]

Read this. I’m not saying every muzzy made would withstand these tests but it’s good food for thought. There are a lot of old wives tales still floating around…

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/white-m97-test-report-from-browning.59892/#post-580017

 

[LBAhunter]

I bought one of those plastic volume measures when I first started (never used it).Then I found out that it was just easier to weigh my powder.The only thing I use those marked BH209 tubes are for storage. My N110 loads looks like in them.....

 

[txhunter58]

I think you are in good shape as to your original question. That said, muzzleloading can be a lot of work. Weighing powder is more work. If you have time and enjoy it, go for it. It’s more accurate.

But I tell every newbie, there is no reason to weigh charges when you first start out. It makes very little difference in groups out to 100 yrds. In over 30 yrs of hunting with a muzzy, I have only shot with open sights, and for me that means 100-120 yrds max. I get 2-3” groups at 100 yrds with volume only (and open sights). When and if I ever put a scope on a muzzy (if I get picked for Utah and can use a 1x scope) I will prob weigh and extend my range. But there is no need to improve my hunting accuracy presently. It’s more than adequate.

Remember a 3” group is only 1.5” away from the bullseye. On a hunt, I can live with that.