Is there such a bullet

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52Bore said:
Back to the OP.
I thought of this bullet 1st along with the Bloodline.
Ron 50gr test Barnes 250 TEZ.jpg
What more could you ask for a bullet. But this one FAILED Ron's 50gr test.. So did the heavier 325gr Bloodline.

The heavier 50x325 would fail the 50 grain test. It does take more to open it as I found out a few years back. I think the Lehigh said it was suggested 1600 FPS to get it open. Which also goes along with the Barnes XPB's that I tested.
 
sabotloader said:
52Bore said:
Back to the OP.
I thought of this bullet 1st along with the Bloodline.
Ron 50gr test Barnes 250 TEZ.jpg
What more could you ask for a bullet. But this one FAILED Ron's 50gr test.. So did the heavier 325gr Bloodline.

The heavier 50x325 would fail the 50 grain test. It does take more to open it as I found out a few years back. I think the Lehigh said it was suggested 1600 FPS to get it open. Which also goes along with the Barnes XPB's that I tested.
Thanks - that will certainly not make it for the OP.
 
52Bore said:
sabotloader said:
52Bore said:
Back to the OP.
I thought of this bullet 1st along with the Bloodline.
Ron 50gr test Barnes 250 TEZ.jpg
What more could you ask for a bullet. But this one FAILED Ron's 50gr test.. So did the heavier 325gr Bloodline.

The heavier 50x325 would fail the 50 grain test. It does take more to open it as I found out a few years back. I think the Lehigh said it was suggested 1600 FPS to get it open. Which also goes along with the Barnes XPB's that I tested.

Thanks - that will certainly not make it for the OP.

No, not at any ranges much past 100. Remember the bullet was designed to go into a 50x54 sabot for a 54 cal muzzleloader... I shot them full bore at 1850/1900 fps from the muzzle. They were shot with 120 gr. T7 and from a 50 cal ML. I did harvest one elk with one but the range was only 60 yards. It really did a job on the elk.

I also tried the Lehigh 50x350 bullet - It was of course not built for a ML and it had/has the same problem as does the 325 from a ML...
 
the thing is, 2 & 3 contradict each other. (And for our purposes, Im keeping it to muzzleloader specifics) Its under a similar category of(#3)whats a good bullet for varmint to small size deer? And (#2) whats a good bullet for large deer, elk, moose and dangerous game? and each category further stressed by (average use purposes) maximum range and accuracy. Even in the muzzleloader world, there's a pretty broad spectrum of guns, styles and equipment. I doubt there really is an across the board answer. somewhere in the mix is a compromise blending of ingredients to suit each individual palette for flavor.

Maximum penetration is usually easier to achieve than maximum energy dump, but both in one...
 
Na.
Break them down, one at a time.
1- Designed for MAX accuracy at varying ranges. IMO, like stated before - MML should be easily capable to 250 -300.. Max accuracy, means one that excels over others - or at least comparable. Kinda like if someone asked me the most accurate in-lines at Friendship - I say 2 have proven most successful and they are at completely different ends of the spectrum.. Both 45's - 525gr +/- and 80-95gr Swiss (1850's technology) & 275gr +/- sabotless Max load of BH209 (todays technology).

2- Designed to MAX damage 'by' penetrating as deep as possible. IMO - This is only going to be achieved by speed or weight or both AND the bullet alloy. But, too hard an alloy it will fail #3, except a fracturing bullet.

3- Designed to avoid over-penetration by deforming to control depth...deals more damage inside the wound. They even have a side note as this may limit penetrating by expanding of fragmenting. IMO - this can only be done with a soft alloy (or core/thin jacket) or a bullet that fragments or a HP.

From Ron's test. Large HP and fragmenting bullets seem to overwhelmingly pass his test. They seem to all have HP diameter nearly 60% of bullet diameter. His 50gr velocity also shows a 250gr near min energy at 250-300 yards, they will not penetrate as much as one heavier.

So,to me. A bullet that meets all 3 must:
1- Be a proven consistent, accurate, winner at distances from 50-250/300 yards.
2- Heavy to penetrate as deep as possible - to carry the momentum at 250/300yards.
3- Have a big HP.

I'll stop for now..
 
While a big heavy chunk of lead is a fine choice, especially for those that can lean hard on their target shooting experience, it doesn't translate to all styles of hunting. Out of a shooting house with a food plot or feeder in front of you,with clear shooting lanes it would work great. Plenty of time to set up, you can get away with movement. That isn't every man's set up. One of my favorite places to sit is on a cedar filled draw that leads from a bedding area to a corn/ soybean field.There is no blind or stand, just sit down with your back to a tree or blow down.Where I sit is determined by the wind. The draw is a little over 200 yards wide, there are gaps and openings between the cedars at random places giving you a shot. When a deer gets to one of these gaps it will only be visible for a short time. They are on their way to supper and they are hungry. If I had to range every one of these gaps and adjust the turret for a shot there isn't time. This is not even factoring in the movement that could cause me to get busted by an unseen deer. Now a third factor could also come into play, the rainbow trajectory of that big lead. It could cause a miss from hitting a limb well above your point of aim. In this situation a flat shooting combo that can just be pointed and shot, without having to input dope works much better. For these reasons I stand by my conclusion that there is no perfect bullet, but there are some fine choices for the situation.
 
52Bore said:
Na.
Break them down, one at a time.
1- Designed for MAX accuracy at varying ranges. IMO, like stated before - MML should be easily capable to 250 -300.. Max accuracy, means one that excels over others - or at least comparable. Kinda like if someone asked me the most accurate in-lines at Friendship - I say 2 have proven most successful and they are at completely different ends of the spectrum.. Both 45's - 525gr +/- and 80-95gr Swiss (1850's technology) & 275gr +/- sabotless Max load of BH209 (todays technology).

2- Designed to MAX damage 'by' penetrating as deep as possible. IMO - This is only going to be achieved by speed or weight or both AND the bullet alloy. But, too hard an alloy it will fail #3, except a fracturing bullet.

3- Designed to avoid over-penetration by deforming to control depth...deals more damage inside the wound. They even have a side note as this may limit penetrating by expanding of fragmenting. IMO - this can only be done with a soft alloy (or core/thin jacket) or a bullet that fragments or a HP.

From Ron's test. Large HP and fragmenting bullets seem to overwhelmingly pass his test. They seem to all have HP diameter nearly 60% of bullet diameter. His 50gr velocity also shows a 250gr near min energy at 250-300 yards, they will not penetrate as much as one heavier.

So,to me. A bullet that meets all 3 must:
1- Be a proven consistent, accurate, winner at distances from 50-250/300 yards.
2- Heavy to penetrate as deep as possible - to carry the momentum at 250/300yards.
3- Have a big HP.

I'll stop for now..

I'll somewhat agree, but have a few concerns.

There are few hunters that have the TOTAL confidence to shoot 200yds, let alone 250 or 300yds. Many have a self imposed limit of 100 to maybe 150yds. It may not be that their rifles aren't capable, but the shooters confidence and total equipment package can be a huge contributing factor. The type of terrain one is hunting can certainly dictate what he/she determines the bullet type needed for maximum accuracy. If one hunts inside a heavy woodlot or swamp, their need for a bullet that shoots with maximum accuracy to 300yds isn't necessarily needed when shots may not be further than 50 or 60yds.

Also the vast majority of hunters shoot and hunt with .50cal rifles using sabots. Granted, there are those who prefer to shoot powerbelts, but certainly and without question, the highest percentage of hunters use a .50cal. Outside of the competitive world, extreme accuracy isn't really of the highest importance to hunters, nor is long range shooting/hunting. The opposite for competitive shooters.

As others have mentioned, 2 & 3 somewhat contradict. One asks for maximum penetration with maximum damage, which most might consider a pass through, where as the other indicates that it should not be an over penetrating bullet, remaining inside the animal, yet still cause maximum damage.

With all respect to Ron and his testing........ Any of the bullets that failed a 200+ velocity/expansion test, doesn't necessarily mean that the given bullet doesn't function perfect for the hunter shooting at ranges of less than 100yds with a full charge.
 
hawki said:
While a big heavy chunk of lead is a fine choice, especially for those that can lean hard on their target shooting experience, it doesn't translate to all styles of hunting. Out of a shooting house with a food plot or feeder in front of you,with clear shooting lanes it would work great. Plenty of time to set up, you can get away with movement. That isn't every man's set up. One of my favorite places to sit is on a cedar filled draw that leads from a bedding area to a corn/ soybean field.There is no blind or stand, just sit down with your back to a tree or blow down.Where I sit is determined by the wind. The draw is a little over 200 yards wide, there are gaps and openings between the cedars at random places giving you a shot. When a deer gets to one of these gaps it will only be visible for a short time. They are on their way to supper and they are hungry. If I had to range every one of these gaps and adjust the turret for a shot there isn't time. This is not even factoring in the movement that could cause me to get busted by an unseen deer. Now a third factor could also come into play, the rainbow trajectory of that big lead. It could cause a miss from hitting a limb well above your point of aim. In this situation a flat shooting combo that can just be pointed and shot, without having to input dope works much better. For these reasons I stand by my conclusion that there is no perfect bullet, but there are some fine choices for the situation.
While everyone's hunting differs and certainly 200 yards is not easy task.
What load are you shooting?
 
52, I'm shooting a 200 grain shockwave, harvester sabot, 84 grs, of Blackhorn(weighed), out of a .45 Knight. Clocked at 2275 fps at the muzzle. This load sighted in 3 in high at 100 is on at 150 and 5.5 low at 200.
 
hawki said:
52, I'm shooting a 200 grain shockwave, harvester sabot, 84 grs, of Blackhorn(weighed), out of a .45 Knight. Clocked at 2275 fps at the muzzle. This load sighted in 3 in high at 100 is on at 150 and 5.5 low at 200.

These bullets are VERY accurate for me also in my .45 Disc Elite. I have not shot any deer with them yet, so can't comment on that...but dang do they drive tacks :yeah:
 
hawki said:
52, I'm shooting a 200 grain shockwave, harvester sabot, 84 grs, of Blackhorn(weighed), out of a .45 Knight. Clocked at 2275 fps at the muzzle. This load sighted in 3 in high at 100 is on at 150 and 5.5 low at 200.
I like the 40's, but the Knight guys haven't had good luck above 90grV.
I also like your 150 zero, no adjustments necessary for your style hunting.
Based on Ron's testing at 1200fps, I didn't see he's tested your bullet - many tipped bullets have failed at this speed.
I amended this BH209 data for 150 zero, for me it gives me a direct comparison on what's going on. All max loads as yours, with the exception of the 450gr heavy conical - which BH209 does not recommend max loads.


Just curious and would like to hear more about your knowledge with rainbow trajectories (or anyones)?
 

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52, I don't have the background that you do as far as the care and feeding of muzzle loaders with heavy bullets. They drop much less than what I had thought, according to that chart. As I said I have very limited experience with them. I do have experience with the .40/200 gr. load. That chart doesn't reflect my range notes.
 
Elevation, barometric pressure, humidity, temperature, light, wind, just a few things that would cause the difference.

Sent from my ME301T using Tapatalk
 
I don’t know what the perfect bullet is. I do know what my setup is and it works good for me. I hunt in the southern Missouri hard woods so extreme range isn’t something I worry about. My farthest shot that I can remember at a deer is about 150yds. But 90% of them are under a 100yds.

I shoot 3 777 pellets with a 250gr SST sighted in dead on at 100yds and it’s about 6in low at 200yds.

Me and my hunting buddy was down at the private gun range we belong to last year. We was shooting are muzzeloaders before muzzeloader season started. The range goes out to 300yds and my buddy told me to watch in the spotting scope. To see if I could tell where he hit shooting at the 300yd gong. Well the sun must of been in just the right spot. Because with the spotting scope you could see that bullet flying thru the air. We both took turns shooting and watching and it was pretty neat. Between 250 and 300yds a muzzeloader really dies off it look lick the bullet was just falling out of the air. You had to aim aweful high for that gun with a 100yd zero to drop a bullet into that 300yd gong. With that spotting scope you could watch it from about 100yds till it hit the gong face plain as day.lol
 
Although I'm currently not using Barnes bullets, I do have considerable experience shooting and hunting with them. The Barnes bullets from previous rifles have been extremely accurate and I've harvested considerable numbers of whitetail at distances to 250yds with them.
Because my preference is a completely broadside POI, rarely even at distance, did I not get a complete pass through, along with internal devastation. However every bullet that I have recovered, has always been a picture perfect Barnes expansion. I have NEVER had a failure.

1 - within practical hunting distances, the bullet was exceptionally accurate.
2 - it penetrates deeply if not completely passing through, causing extreme damage in my experiences.
3 - evidence of bullets recovered shows extreme internal damage with a perfectly expanded bullet.
4 - a full freezer.
 
WPrather just for kind of a reference . With Blackhorn and max load 84grains by weight and a 275 or 300 grain bullet drops approximately 24inches . Depending on what bullet I use I can get to 300 yards with about 8MIN.
 
Interesting and how fast is the muzzle velocity? Hornday's website says you would need about 2250fps to get that kinda drop from a 250gr SST.

I shoot 3 777 pellets with a 250gr SST sighted in dead on at 100yds and it’s about 6in low at 200yds.
 
I would of thought the drop would of been more with a 250 grain SST and 3 777 pellets at 200 yards. But strange things happen with some guns . That's about the same drop I get with a 270 Emax or a 275 Accumax . 3 min or 6 inches at 200 yards with Blackhorn .
 
Dougs136Schwartz said:
I would of thought the drop would of been more with a 250 grain SST and 3 777 pellets at 200 yards. But strange things happen with some guns . That's about the same drop I get with a 270 Emax or a 275 Accumax . 3 min or 6 inches at 200 yards with Blackhorn .

Its approximately the same drop I used to get with a Barnes 250gr TMZ, using 75grs WEIGHED of BH209. However even with actual targets, no one believed it, nor would the ballistics programs support it.
With a 300gr SST and 3 - 50gr pellets, my drop from the UF is 9" (4.3moa) at 200yds. The ballistics programs support actual shooting.
 

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