Muzzleloader newbie asks what powder increment for load test?

[Brian Locke]

Hello, appreciate suggestions and lessons from your experience. New to muzzleloaders but not reloading center fire. Have an Accura LR-X .50 cal. on the way. With muzzle-loaders.com's muzzle brake. I will start with the ELR bullets 270 gr, and Blackhorn 209 powder as muzzle-loaders suggested. I'm well into Medicare age, going after pronghorn. Not likely to get tag again, odds less than 2%. Oh. Peep sights, starting with Williams Western Precision Sight.

My primary question is what powder jump increments are suggested in testing for my best load? 3 grains, 5 grains, 10 grains? I do plan to weigh out each load. Muzzleloaders accomplished .65" groups "with 100 grains" (I assume that's a volume measure but probably weighed) per: Finally Tested the Hodgdon Firestar Pellets!

My guess is 5ish, 3 seems too fine an increment for dumping powder down a long barrel, 10 gr seems too course, but would like to hear results from other muzzleoaders. Appreciate the help. Apologies if my searches failed to find the right threads. I am familiar with using a course increment and then a finer element for fine tuning "ladder" tests. And yes, I'm trying to save dollars

 

[Mnt monkey]

Welcome Brian, if I had your rifle and was going to do what you're going to do I would start out with 70 grains by weight and I would work up in one or two grains increments at a time myself if you have time to do that I have found with black horn and I cannot speak for a lot of the other sub powders but sometimes Blackhorn one grain can make a really big difference and I'm talking about my weight specifically. I have had I think eight Acura 50 cal 28 twist cvas over the years I like the gun i have a pet load myself and usually it's right at 70 by weight. If I was going to hunt Pronghorn and trying to get all the distance I could out of this gun all the more reason to slow down and work up slowly I would think you were going to want to shoot as heavy a charge as you can considering Pronghorn shots, I know you'll find if you haven't already that a heavy charge and an Accura can really be a handful I think it takes some practice and follow through to get comfortable with it I know a lot of people that shoot 84 grains by weight 120 by volume which is too much for me, but if all I was going to do was kill a pronghorn with it I could probably tolerate it.,, a lot of good muzzleloaders here that live in Western Open Country I think you'll find good advice here.

 

[ElDiablo]

Welcome. I’m going to differ a little from my friend in Arkansas.

Common misconception among guys starting out is that most of us weigh powder. Most don't - we use volume and you should assume all references online to loads are volume unless it specifically states weight. Hodgdon even says don’t weigh your BH209 - volume measure it.

I would start at 95 grV and work up in 5 grain increments. In a hunting rifle with open sights you’ll just be wasting powder on smaller increments. If you really wanted to make it simple, start with 110-115 grV of BH209. I’ll bet the accuracy will be good in that range.

Biggest thing you can do, though, is put a scope on that rifle for load development. Then when you find your load, take the scope off and use the peep. To make that really easy, Id put a peep mounted rail on it like the EABCO Peeprib or Williams Ace in the Hole with the Williams Western Precision front sight.

PeepRib Peep Sight for TC Encore and Omega by E. Arthur Brown Co.

Williams® Precision Ace In The Hole Picatinny Rail Sight - For CVA™ Accura, Optima, Wolf & Apex Rifles - 679010

 

[gman57]

Welcome from NC Brian , my Accura liked 105-110 by volume when I had it, good luck.

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

Using black powder you find NO difference when using loads 5 grains different.
Only 50% of the powder is burnt anyway.
Blackpowder loading and shooting is a game far different than smokeless powder shooting.
Load by volume and enjoy the ride.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

You can look at SHOOTING TECHNIQUES & TIPS. My posting is LOAD DEVELOPMENT for a 54 caliber rifle. If you have a chronograph, you can follow my post. Basically I take the maximum load and reduce it by 60% for starting load. Then increase by 10% until maximum load. I use a chronograph to check the velocity increase. I use the laws of diminishing returns to decide where to stop. It is a little work but well worth it.

 

[anonymouscowherd]

For the cost of blackhorn I would be looking at pyrodex if you must but real black. At 80gr by weight in a charge you are looking at $2/boom in powder alone. Add some fancy boolits and you quickly end up with a rifle chambered in $5 bills

Either is cheaper by far than blackhorn and real black while messy isnt any harder to clean.

As far as load development, I went with big jumps - 30, 55, 85 due to my measures. Didnt notice much accuracy across with prb or 425gr maxis so 30 for kids/newbies/small game (turkey this fall!) and 85 for deer/pigs

 

[sonny from st. louis]

Are the 30,55, and 85 measures from the spouts on your flask. I have an adjustable powder in steps of 5 grV. My maximum load for my 54 caliber rifle is 100 grV. I reduced that by 40% which is 60 grV. I increased the load by 10% to max. This gives me 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100grV. You can see the 5 shot velocity test for each one. You give decide where to stop on the loads. I stopped at 80 grV. That is working good for me. I am getting good accuracy for hunting out to 100 yards. I will check the load at 200 yards some day.

 

[anonymouscowherd]

Are the 30,55, and 85 measures from the spouts on your flask. I have an adjustable powder in steps of 5 grV. My maximum load for my 54 caliber rifle is 100 grV. I reduced that by 40% which is 60 grV. I increased the load by 10% to max. This gives me 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100grV. You can see the 5 shot velocity test for each one. You give decide where to stop on the loads. I stopped at 80 grV. That is working good for me. I am getting good accuracy for hunting out to 100 yards. I will check the load at 200 yards some day.

No. Empty 223 case, empty 308 case, or one of each

More often Ill preload a bunch of 5ml flip top tube with 30gr (223 case) in each, then an appropriate number of them down the bore or into the camber (one per hole on my 1858)

 

[MrTom]

Hi Brian and welcome!

Here's my take. You're using a gun and bullet designed to work with/for each other and the Blackhorn came with a recommendation from Muzzle-loaders so stick with those components. 5 grain increments is a good plenty and I suggest weighing the powder to eliminate any guessing that volume measure brings with it. If muzzleloaders suggested 100 grains to start, that's a volume measure: Mnt Monkey's 70 grain start is a weighed measure and that's what I'd start with. I think you'll find the sweet spot somewhere between 70 weighed grains and 80 weighed grains.

I see you have highlighted some pellets. I'd avoid pellets like the plague. They limit your being able to work up loads if you need to split hairs, and yes, that happens more than one thinks. While none of the subs are corrosion free, Blackhorn is by far the least corrosive and Blackhorn requires zero wiping the barrel between shots like T 7 powders/pellets may require. Pyrodex in both granular and pellet form are under-powered when compared to true black and the other subs. Honestly, Blackhorn has the most bang, literally, for your buck in spite of its high pricing and allows for repeat shots calling for nothing to be done plus its very water/damp resistant. Add to that that its the least corrosive of all of the powders to shoot and, well, its just a better powder to start with and stick with. If you want to get serious about punching holes in paper, T7 2 or 3 f granular using the same volume or weight of Blackhorn is dandy for the club or range but you will need to wipe the barrel between shots. In the field, Blackhorn reigns supreme.

As you can see in the comments already there are differing opinions. You have to sort thru it all. In my opinion, blackhorn is only bested by smokeless powder, and weighed.

 

[Mnt monkey]

For a year and a half when I first started muzzleloading I poured by volume and I had pretty good results pretty consistent inch and a half groups when I started weighing my powder my groups went from an inch and a quarter to less than an inch very consistency eight different CVA Acura rifles I had shooting around a half inch some of them less I do agree with Diablo's points Black Horn was designed engineered to poor by volume I just didn't find the practice of that as exact working up a load as I did weighing my charges. Wether by volume or by weight I understand that both are measurements I settled on trusting always my scale rather than a loading tube measurement I noticed when I first started buying tubes that had measurement lines on them and other little gadgets to measure volume they all seem to differ slightly and I do understand that that's not really relevant there can be slight differences in those instruments because they're relative to your specific gun at that moment I get that I just like the security in my mind that measuring every single charge brings me,, it's a common topic volume or weight my own position on this is based by my own thousands of bullets shot it just works for me better. I shoot my muzzleloaders even my break action CVA as if are bench rest rifles I will stay in the weigh my charges camp I will say this for me starting out as a new muzzleloader having a background in Centerfire and hand loading weighing my charges came naturally pouring by volume and having to figure out the differences in volume measurements that are out there that confused me a little bit sometimes pouring by volume seems easier I think sometimes for a new person that is different and I know the original poster here wasn't necessarily a new shooter he just was working up a new load specific for for Pronghorn hunting,,, my bottom line eight rifles half inch to a quarter inch and three shot groups. Could I have done that with those rifles pouring my weight I'm sure I could have could I have done that quickly and more efficiently I personally doubt that

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I agree 100%. When I set up my powder chart on load development last winter, the humidity was 28 to 30% in my shop. I tried to measure the same loads a couple of weeks ago the humidity was 52% and the amount powder by volume was different. I found out that the powder measures vary from one manufacture to another. The government weights and measures does NOT control the grains by volume. The muzzle loading industry controls this measures and could be as much as 15% difference from the lowest to the highest powder measure. Black powder is so inefficient the difference does NOT matter.

 

[Bushfire]

I used to strive for clover leaf groups as a minimum until I realised the biggest variability was the nut behind the butt. I guided a guy once that had a 100yd sub MOA load for his 270. When it come to taking the shot he put two in the gut and one in the bag leg of a stag from 130 yd.

I dabbled in weighing my BP but I find it more enjoyable to carry my powder in a horn and measure it out in the field by volume. Worked for the long hunters and mountain men and it works for me.
It groups well enough for practical use in the field for my western style hunting and I'm yet to lose an animal.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I use weighed (grsW) loads on the range for velocity test, grouping, and sighting in. On the range I take time to wipe the bores. My goal at this point is decide what is best and get zeroed. When I go to the field everything changes. The flask and powder measure are only used. A hunter does not shoot too many shots anyway. This has worked for many years and will for years to come.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Live game shooting and paper groups is sometimes worlds apart isn't it,, all the more critical for me when I'm working up a load on paper for it to hover around that half inch I'm of the opinion that a half inch load at 100 with your heart beating out in the field in a big buck in your scope is probably going to be more of a 2-in to 3 in gun I've seen the effects of adrenaline turn bench rest shooters into shotgun blast at barnwell's, and then again there are some athletes and shooters that adrenaline makes them focus more I think in large though it is the opposite,, a inch and a quarter to inch and a half rifle at 100 yd to me in the field with your heart pumping is a 4 to 8 in Rifle 4 to 8 in rifles equal wounded animals wounded animals equal you looking for a new bullet that leaves a better Blood Trail the next year what you should be doing is learning to shoot better this really is all very relative to working up a new load in a new rifle especially a lightweight break open again I appreciate everybody's opinions and I know it's a often beat up talked about topic.

 

[deerlessbob]

I too have found discrepancies between different loading tubes. Weighing is the way to go IMHO.

 

[rangerod]

I always use 2f triple seven for load development and then switch over to black horn when I get the group I'm looking for. When you switch over you can use slightly less black horn because it offers a little more velocity. I always weigh my loads.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

Not ALL black powders are created equal. If there is any doubt in the energy per grain, always contact the powder manufacture for any changes. Each and every batch of powder is tested BEFORE release to the public. On my load development worksheet, I have a section for this type of calculation. It has been my experience, the powder manufacture is say reduce the load by 10% or 15% as an example.
Good luck!

 

[CVA Fanboy]

Start 10 grains per caliber Rifle example .50 cal 50 grains and work up from there, Pistols bit different, if no owners manual and no one to ask I will start 1/4 caliber and work up. example .36 Cal 9 grains and work my way up, BE SURE of 3 Things before you begin, 1 Caliber size 2 Gun is in shoot-able condition 3 MAXIMUM powder charge. You do not want to exceed that

 

[sonny from st. louis]

You are dangerous territory. Is your rifle still being made? If so, contact the manufacture for the maximum charge. It is the manufacture responsibility to determine the maximum load for liability reasons. One should NOT manufacture without insurance. That is why this testing is important. The best a company can do, there will be lemons made. If the manufacture is out of business, contact a reliable gunsmith for guidance or a powder company. Some times the gunsmiths will have their own library to work with or contacts who will have information. I am skeptical about some of these methods of establishing a load. The best way is company manuals or professional gunsmith advise. When I was teaching, I had my material footnoted as to where the information come from. It was always from a noted source that could be checked.
Good luck and be careful of who and what you believe.