Muzzleloader newbie asks what powder increment for load test?

[Brian Locke]

Thanks to all above for your input. I do realize a better question would have been what size nodes have you found in your testing (in terms of grains of powder). I am coming from centerfire, so I can't imagine using volume, though I notice several use that, included a long-time friend I taught hunter safety with for a few years. As I stated, I'm after pronghorn, and I'll be in wide open country off course. Thanks for being clear with your suggestions. You put things in context I should have caught in my searches for this answer, but I missed it in a different context. My comment in original thread about "trying to save dollars" turns out to be a joke. I've had to get lots of new gear, plus rifle, sights, you guys know more about this than me. At my age, you'd think I'd know this....Geez. I'm not going to look at the cost of each round, really, the opportunity to hunt is priceless. Besides, that cost might dull my current enthusiasm.

I don't have much to show in return, but I will share two spreadsheets I've put together. One is for making realistically (I hope) sized dry fire targets. I just added 50 yard increments, was just for 100-500 yards. I find it very helpful for working on fundamental, positions, and shooting sticks, etc. it does a lot for my confidence, and humility of seeing how hard it is to have crosshairs on targets representing targets far away. Use as you wish, or not. you put the distance to your dry fire target in yards (26.7 yards in my backyard) and it gives the radius for a circle. I take a drawing compass and a metric ruler to draw circles on an 8 by 10 piece of paper, put it in a protective sheet and tape it to back wall.

I have also done some initial ballistic runs. I like to work out where my aim points will be in on animal in terms of % of body height. I use Jack O'Connor's methods for Maximum Point Blank Range (no more than 4" above line of sight) ((O'Connor 1978 The Hunter's Shooting Guide. Outdoor Life Books). For what is in this spreadsheet I used velocities reported from this blog, or elsewhere. I have yet to punch paper, so this will all change, of course. Including the rise I use. O'Connor hunted in west, as I do, so I use his general approach. after testing, and checking drop at ranges I'll figure out aim points on the animal, based on achieved trajectories. This way I'll have my aimpoints memorized (usually one for "close to at or near max point blank range", and and 2 others for up to 400 yards. But that's with my 30.06 after elk and oryx (gemsbok). We'll see what I groups I can get at what distances with my Accura and peep sights (williams Western Precision sight). Anyway, this is how I approach my hunts so that when I get an opportunity I can acquire target picture quickly and get my shot of quickly. I should be able to do same here, thought trajectories, and group sizes, and therefore distance I'll shoot to well be quite different. Hopefully I'll have stuff to report back on in a few months.

Long thankyou, but I do appreciate everybody's assistance.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

Sorry for my late response. I spent yesterday on the range doing velocity testing.
To answer your question about powder increments. My black powder measure has increments of 5 grV. I was told years ago that if I bought a powder measure from each manufacture of measures there would be a difference of 10% from low to high measured powder. This is aloud because of the inefficiency of black powder. In load development, I use a percentage of 10%. I take the maximum load and reduce it by 40%. I increase by 10% to maximum load. Now, if you have a powder that has to be reduce by 10 or 15%. you can get this percentage from the powder manufacture. Reduce your maximum load by this percentage. Then, reduce the new maximum load by 40% and increase by 10% of new maximum load to maximum. This is the way to keep from damaging the guns. The locks do have a maximum pressure limit. I have been told that you can not overload a muzzleloader. This is not a true statement, the rifle can be blown up.

 

[Ninering62]

Sorry for my late response. I spent yesterday on the range doing velocity testing.
To answer your question about powder increments. My black powder measure has increments of 5 grV. I was told years ago that if I bought a powder measure from each manufacture of measures there would be a difference of 10% from low to high measured powder. This is aloud because of the inefficiency of black powder. In load development, I use a percentage of 10%. I take the maximum load and reduce it by 40%. I increase by 10% to maximum load. Now, if you have a powder that has to be reduce by 10 or 15%. you can get this percentage from the powder manufacture. Reduce your maximum load by this percentage. Then, reduce the new maximum load by 40% and increase by 10% of new maximum load to maximum. This is the way to keep from damaging the guns. The locks do have a maximum pressure limit. I have been told that you can not overload a muzzleloader. This is not a true statement, the rifle can be blown up.

I think we've all seen some videos or read some posts about somebody blowing up their muzzleloader.
What never ceases to amaze me about every single one of those instances, is that the entire focus is put on the gun blowing up & when someone gets injured. Its NEVER put on - what that individual did to make the actually blow up. In truth, when a gun has a catastrophic failure its almost a guarantee that its bc that individual caused it by either not knowing what they were doing & put waaaay too much powder in it or the wrong kind of powder, or they just make an error by double loading etc. that went beyond the guns safe operating parameters.
As to volumetric measuring & all the diff tubes with the lines on them, do not use them period. All the diff adj measuring devices out there now, I have 4 of them & they will all give diff amounts when set on the same thing when I tested that on a digital scale.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I worked as a part time range officer at a local range. After each deer season, I would thank the gun gods for doing an out standing job in the design and manufacturing of guns. After talking to some of the shooters I was amazed at how little these shooters actually knew about guns and ammunition. Goex black powder has been long used by reenactors. The reenactors use the old guns that have weak locks. That is reason I contact the powder companies and ask how their powder relates to Goex powder. Sometimes the companies will say to reduce the loads by 10% or 15%. I just try to keep things as safe as possible. I have taught gun classes for close to fifty years and I hope I have did my part to teach the right way so nobody gets hurt or killed.

 

[FredB]

5 grains can make a bigger difference than I used to think. The larger group, (right) was with 75 grains Pyrodex RS by volume. After a sight adjustment, the second group (left) was with 80 grains. Each at 50 yards, open sights. The next group, not pictured, at 85 grains started noticeably opening up again, though not so radically. (Disclaimer; I've never used Blackhorn.) Don't know if I would have believed it if I hadn't shot these groups myself, but there it is. Your mileage may vary.

 

[bloominonion]

5 grains can make a bigger difference than I used to think. The larger group, (right) was with 75 grains Pyrodex RS by volume. After a sight adjustment, the second group (left) was with 80 grains. Each at 50 yards, open sights. The next group, not pictured, at 85 grains started noticeably opening up again, though not so radically. (Disclaimer; I've never used Blackhorn.) Don't know if I would have believed it if I hadn't shot these groups myself, but there it is. Your mileage may vary.

That is an impressive difference in grouping!

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I have two powder measures. Each one measures in 5 grV increments. If you find a measure that measures in 1 grV increments, buy it. A person could fine tune the testing and come up with better results. In my load development, I measured 10 loads using a standard powder measure in 5 grV increments. I weighed each load with a balance beam powder scale. I had to practice the measuring techniques to get the consistency I showed in the load development report. In real life shooting in the field, there will be variation with powder loads. Probably the 5 grV increment would be good enough for good shooting.

 

[Hanshi]

In a .40 flint rifle I once owned a five grain increase of my usual 3F black powder gave the prb velocity a big kick of almost 200 fps. All other 5 grain increases followed, pretty much, the standard linear velocity increases with this lone exception.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I similar results too. On one of my test with the 54 caliber and FFg black power I got to 80 grV with linear increase in velocity. When I tested at 85 grV, the velocity went down. then at 90 and 100 grV the velocity went back up. This last test the velocity stayed the same when I went to 85 grV. I do not have an answer for this. Maybe a different lot number of powder. This is what makes shooting guns so much fun. I can go to the end of the firing line and setup my chronograph and try to kind the answer. I try to watch the loading procedure and keep the S.D. under 10 fps. I feel I can trust the average velocity when the S.D.'s is low.
Have a good day

 

[bronko220002]

Hello, appreciate suggestions and lessons from your experience. New to muzzleloaders but not reloading center fire. Have an Accura LR-X .50 cal. on the way. With muzzle-loaders.com's muzzle brake. I will start with the ELR bullets 270 gr, and Blackhorn 209 powder as muzzle-loaders suggested. I'm well into Medicare age, going after pronghorn. Not likely to get tag again, odds less than 2%. Oh. Peep sights, starting with Williams Western Precision Sight.

My primary question is what powder jump increments are suggested in testing for my best load? 3 grains, 5 grains, 10 grains? I do plan to weigh out each load. Muzzleloaders accomplished .65" groups "with 100 grains" (I assume that's a volume measure but probably weighed) per: Finally Tested the Hodgdon Firestar Pellets!

My guess is 5ish, 3 seems too fine an increment for dumping powder down a long barrel, 10 gr seems too course, but would like to hear results from other muzzleoaders. Appreciate the help. Apologies if my searches failed to find the right threads. I am familiar with using a course increment and then a finer element for fine tuning "ladder" tests. And yes, I'm trying to save dollars

Brian just remember black powder and substitutes including BH209 loads are by volume not weight. Being that your experienced in smokeless powder reloading I'm pretty sure you have a scale. So with that being said start out with 80 grs volume and weigh it. Same with 90, 100, 110 and 120 gr all by volume. (volume to weight will vary from lot to lot of propellant) (Your weights may be something like 63 gr, 70 gr, 75 gr 80 gr just as an example)
So like shooting smokeless using your bullet of choice, your first charges may shoot 3.5" group, your next set may shoot 2.5", your 3rd may shoot 1" and 4th again 2.5. So your tightest group is at 110 gr V. Next step in to try 105 and 115 gr by volume (whatever the actual weight is).
Then you compare your 3 groups, 1 or 2 each of 105, 110, and 115 by volume.
Its not hard, just time consuming.
Note: Guys say you don't have to swab between shots with BH209, and you really don't, but I still do at the range when load testing just for consistency between shots.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I agree with what is said in the above posting. I will add the volume to weight conversion will change with humidity. The powder chart I posted was done the winter and the humidity was 29% in my shop. If I was to repeat that conversion in the summer I am sure the results would be different. I just looked at the barometer and it showed 55%. It will get worst before it gets better. Black powder attracts moisture and the kernels will increase in size and reduce the amount in the measure. The actual weight will be less than volume measure. When I am testing I always weigh the powder charge for the best result. My loading procedure on the range is much different than out in the field. On the range I try for the most accurate results for the best decision. I swab between shots for consistency.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I am attaching my 54 caliber load development. I start by REDUCING the maximum load 40%. Please notice my max load is 100 grV so everything is even 10 grV. I increased by 10% for each increment. I do not want to convey that this is final way of developing a load for a rifle. You can use my sheet as a thought starting process. I will be happy to tell why I did what I did. You can change it for your needs. Also I use a chronograph to determine the change in velocity. Accurate loading is necessary to determine the best powder charge to use. I calculated some things that you may not need. Please look at my powder conversion from grV to grW. All of this takes time but I enjoy working with thing like this. I will help if needed.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I decided to do a test load worksheet to show a different type of black powder with reduction in load. In this case I have a brand of black powder DIFFERENT than GOEX. I have contacted the manufacture and they recommended a 15% reduction in charge. Go to the RED boxes on worksheet. I start with my 100 grV as recommended by the rifle manufacture. I entered this into my worksheet along with 15% reduction and got my new maximum charge of 85 grV. I entered this figure into my maximum load cell. Now, I have loads of 50, 60, 70, 75, and 85 grV. My programing rounds the loads to nearest 5 grV. As you can see I will have to redo my conversion chart grV to grW for the new powder. I will try to do this chart in the winter because the humidity will be low. I will have to reshoot the velocity test with chronograph to find where the velocity curve will break over. On the other 54 cal test this happen at 80 grV. At that point the velocity had very little to no grain. I went to 85 grV and had a 3 fps gain. This was not worth the extra 5 grV. I settled on 80 grV as my load for the 54 cal Hawken rifle.

Good luck and I will help if needed

 

[bronko220002]

Honestly for the average Joe Muzzleloader who just uses his rifle to hunt deer a couple weeks a year or just likes to go out on the weekend and make white smoke weighing your charges isn't worth the effort. Especially when you only buy your powder one canister at a time. A different lot will give entirely different results in volume to weight ratio.
I'm all for striving for the utmost in accuracy but sometimes we just push things a bit too far. At 100 yards and in a deer couldn't care less if you measured your powder by volume or weight. He'll be dead either way as long as you hit where you're supposed to. A 1" or 2" group won't make a hill of beans difference.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

A person should use their guns however they want. I am all for just shooting for the fun of it. On the other hand I have meet people on the range who are looking for accuracy. Believe it or not I do just shoot for the fun of it. But when I test loads with the chronograph especially for someone else I want the best. The weighing and accuracy loading will help the shooter make good choices in how to load. If the shooter is just interested in hunting deer I fully agree in what you said. If the shooter wants to shoot with the boys and no more I agree with you fully. Sometimes I have meet shooters who want more and be able to make the best decision that is where I work. I have always tried to give the best to the shooters when I run a range. Most of the shooters liked the ideas. But as far as I am concerned a person can do however he can within the rules and enjoy their guns. I also agree that ranger loading is different than field loading. The shooter just can not carry all the equipment in the field. In my case the truck is just feet away whether on the range or at the farm. Sorry if I over stepped!

 

[bronko220002]

No overstepping Sonny and I agree. But what I'm really trying to say for the non-black powder (including BH29 and all the other subs) enthusiast if you only shoot a couple times a year or only burn up one canister of powder a year, weighing doesn't do you one bit of good. If you're consistent with your volume measuring you'll shoot very well if you and the rifle are capable.
If you decide to weigh your charges, the next canister of powder you buy the volume to weight ratio will more than likely entirely different so you'd have to start all over from scratch on your load development. Buy a case or several canisters of the same lot and you'll be fine as long as you store it in a climate stable enviornment. Mine is kept in my dehumidified basement where its between 60-70 degrees all year.
But like you said. Its your money, do what you want. I'm just throwing the fact out there about powder.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

A lot of the testing that I do comes from my job at Boeing. It is true if you change the lot number you should retest the conversion from grV to grW. This is also true that the humidity changes will affect the conversion. In my shop the humidity goes from 20% to 30% in the winter and the upper 90's% in the summer. If a person will continue to test, a pattern of averages will appear and the same thing will happen with velocities. I developed what I call an accuracy loading procedure. I just kept changing the procedure until the standard deviation got under 10 fps. My powder conversion was developed the same way. I kept measuring powder until I could get ten loads on the same grV to be around one half grain standard deviation. I found how to measure powder very accurately. I kept trying different spouts until I could meter the powder for the weight I wanted. My procedures are working very well. I am sure someone will improve on them. That is one thing I learned at work. Things will change for the good or for the bad, but will always change. I am always interested in improvements.

 

[Ninering62]

A lot of the testing that I do comes from my job at Boeing. It is true if you change the lot number you should retest the conversion from grV to grW. This is also true that the humidity changes will affect the conversion. In my shop the humidity goes from 20% to 30% in the winter and the upper 90's% in the summer. If a person will continue to test, a pattern of averages will appear and the same thing will happen with velocities. I developed what I call an accuracy loading procedure. I just kept changing the procedure until the standard deviation got under 10 fps. My powder conversion was developed the same way. I kept measuring powder until I could get ten loads on the same grV to be around one half grain standard deviation. I found how to measure powder very accurately. I kept trying different spouts until I could meter the powder for the weight I wanted. My procedures are working very well. I am sure someone will improve on them. That is one thing I learned at work. Things will change for the good or for the bad, but will always change. I am always interested in improvements.

Great post TY

 

[Jon Squier]

Welcome. I’m going to differ a little from my friend in Arkansas.

Common misconception among guys starting out is that most of us weigh powder. Most don't - we use volume and you should assume all references online to loads are volume unless it specifically states weight. Hodgdon even says don’t weigh your BH209 - volume measure it.

I would start at 95 grV and work up in 5 grain increments. In a hunting rifle with open sights you’ll just be wasting powder on smaller increments. If you really wanted to make it simple, start with 110-115 grV of BH209. I’ll bet the accuracy will be good in that range.

Biggest thing you can do, though, is put a scope on that rifle for load development. Then when you find your load, take the scope off and use the peep. To make that really easy, Id put a peep mounted rail on it like the EABCO Peeprib or Williams Ace in the Hole with the Williams Western Precision front sight.

PeepRib Peep Sight for TC Encore and Omega by E. Arthur Brown Co.

Williams® Precision Ace In The Hole Picatinny Rail Sight - For CVA™ Accura, Optima, Wolf & Apex Rifles - 679010

The 110grV is a nice recommendation. You’ll be in the sweet spot with that gun, that bullet and that powder load.

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I agree that most shooters use a measure rather than weighed powder charges. In fact some of the club matches require the old tools be used. I will confess that many of my methods come from working in my engineering job at Boeing. I have a very good chronograph to measure the velocity. I take maximum charge for the rifle and reduce it by 40% for the starting charge. I increase the charge by 10% and rounding to the nearest 5 grV to maximum charge. The velocity will increase to a point and then go slightly negative, no change, or slightly positive. This is called the law of diminishing returns. If you keep testing the slight change will keep going. If the shooter loads very carefully using a good procedure and weighed charges then the results can be used as a test. The shooter will have a good loading point to use. I use the chronograph to measure my loading process also. I try to limit my velocity standard deviation to less than 10 fps. When I convert black powder from grV to grW I try to limit my weighing standard deviation to a round 0.5 grW with a low humidity from 25% - 30%. The low humidity keeps the kernel size at a minimum. In my case this occurs in the winter in my shop. All of this is for testing and shot grouping. When I find this data point, I use a more standard procedure for shooting. The nice thing about black powder, people can go off in different directions in the pursuit of perfection. You can have fifty shooters and fifty ways of doing things and everyone is enjoying their guns.

Have a nice day.