New muzzleloader safety concerns

[kunsangsean]

Hey all,

I'm in Idaho, getting ready for an elk muzzleloader season coming up. I have shot muzzleloaders a few times in the past with my dad, but this is my first time learning how to do it all myself. I bought a CVA wolf V2 Northwest and took it to the range one time so far. I think I have it kind of figured out, but I'm second guessing whether I am doing everything safely. I think I will try to find a local blackpowder club but wanted to see if I could get some help on here in the meantime. The manual says not to shoot lead conicals over 400 grains, but it sounds like people are using No excuse bullets pretty regularly. I shot about 20 rounds of 420 grain "no excuse" bullets with 70 grains by volume Triple 7 FFG. Other than kicking the crap out of me, it seemed fine. This is obviously against the manuals instructions, but are lots of people doing it? I would like to shoot lighter weight copper full bore conical like Thor, but they are still illegal in Idaho.

In reading through the list of possible things that can go wrong, short starting a bullet is one of the big ones. What I don't understand is, how much space between bullet and powder is considered a short start? Is a millimeter enough to cause a problem? Or are we talking like a half inch? I marked my ramrod and my only concern here is after 2-3 shots without swabbing it gets harder to load and it's not always exactly on the ramrod mark, but not off by more than 1-2 millimeters.

I had a couple instances of musket caps not igniting the charge. Well, twice the musket cap didn't go off - so I cocked the hammer and fired again and it went off. One time the musket cap went off but didn't ignite the charge. When this happens, what are you supposed to do? I held onto the gun for a while, but eventually I broke the action open and put a new cap on, then fired it. If a slow burn were to ignite it while the action was broken open, I imagine that would be pretty bad.

Of course I read some horror stories on the internet about cheap muzzleloaders blowing up even when manual is followed, and started second guessing my choice of the budget CVA wolf. I imagine a lot of people buy and shoot these without issues, but should I consider a more expensive rifle like a Knight? I think a heavier stock should help with the recoil a little at least.

Thanks for your input! - Sean

 

[txhunter58]

The manufacturer is practicing CYA Tactics. The gun you have should shoot 420 grain lead bullets safely. You don’t need to buy a more expensive gun. But I have never gone above 95 gr (BY VOLUME) of 777 or BH 209 with a heavy bullet. I hunt elk so usually start at 80 gr and work up from there. Like you, I don’t like recoil, so usually I stop at 85-90 gr if it is accurate.

The 1-2 mm is prob due to build up in the breech area. You are safe with that much difference. I would be worried if it was ever a half inch though. With 777, between every shot, I run a very slightly damp patch down (both sides) followed by a dry patch (both sides) down between each shot.

With the above swabbbing between shots, I rarely get hangfires/ misfires. It may be debree building up between shots. If it misfires, I generally keep It pointed in a safe direction 60 secs before opening the breech.

 

[snapbang]

I had a couple instances of musket caps not igniting the charge. Well, twice the musket cap didn't go off - so I cocked the hammer and fired again and it went off.

Im thinking the cap is not properly seated on the nipple.

One time the musket cap went off but didn't ignite the charge.

Not sure what the correct procedure is but if you wait 1 minute I think you are good. Someone correct me if im wrong.

second guessing my choice of the budget CVA wolf.

Nonsense. That gun will serve you well.

The manual says not to shoot lead conicals over 400 grains, but it sounds like people are using No excuse bullets pretty regularly. I shot about 20 rounds of 420 grain "no excuse" bullets with 70 grains by volume Triple 7 FFG.

I wouldn't try a magnum load but I'm sure someone will chime in with there thoughts.

txhunter chimed in with good advise.

 

[MrTom]

Anytime you get a mis-fire, hold the gun barrel down in a safe direction for a couple minutes.

I don't think 20 grain of bullet weight is going to be unsafe as long as you keep the T7 charge level at or lower than what you are currently shooting.

I'd just get in the habit of running a damp patch thru the barrel after each shot especially with T7, followed by a dry patch. You might want to carry a thin wire that will go thru the nipple after every third shot or so. The heavy bullet weight might be causing enough pressure to back debris into the flame hole and running the wire in and out after the patching should clear it.

Oh, and welcome to Modern Muzzleloader.com !

 

[kunsangsean]

I really appreciate everyone's quick replies and experience!

Im thinking the cap is not properly seated on the nipple.

I think you're right about this. I was putting it on there pretty gingerly, wasn't sure how much pressure it takes to set it off.

The one time the cap went off but it didn't fire, I think I had gummed up the breech plug with too much anti-seize. After I cleaned it up I didn't have that happen again.

 

[kunsangsean]

I don't think 20 grain of bullet weight is going to be unsafe as long as you keep the T7 charge level at or lower than what you are currently shooting.

I think the CVA manual has 50 grains by volume as the minimum charge, I'll have to double check. Is there a danger of too small of a charge not having the juice to kick the heavy bullet out? Or is it always more charge, more bullet weight = higher pressure?

 

[snapbang]

Kun, before shooting snap 3-4 caps on the nipple and swab the barrel with a patch. That will clear the nipple and clear the oil from the barrel. As stated swab the barrel with a spit patch between shots. I like to throw the gun over my shoulder and point the muzzle down while swabbing. All the "gunk" can fall out of the barrel instead of down into the breech area.

 

[deermanok]

Welcome from Oklahoma.
Good advice given. All I could add is that burnt Triple 7 builds up just ahead of the breech plug, creating the notorious crud ring. Even after one shot it could make for difficult loading of a second shot.
Always best to swab the barrel after every shot.
Don't be afraid to push those musket caps firmly on the nipple.
Best of luck during your hunting season.

 

[brushblind]

Get yourself a nipple pick and poke that thing before seating your cap. The plugs also fowl up really bad on those so a good soak is needed after each shoot.

 

[txhunter58]

I haven’t used anti-seize grease in years. I wrap my breechplugs with Teflon tape and have never had one seize up

 

[txhunter58]

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/460g-no-excuses.33684/
This thread shows quite a few using a 460 gr with 80 gr of powder.

Know a guy who killed a bull at over 250 yards with the 460 gr bullet and 90 gr of pyrodex P

 

[txhunter58]

Get you a SIMS limbsaver recoil pad. They really help

Not sure if this one fits?

Limbsaver Recoil Pad Precision Fit Air Tech Cva Accura/optima 10830 Color: Black, Fabric/Material: NAVCOM, $3.00 Off

 

[kunsangsean]

I haven’t used anti-seize grease in years. I wrap my breechplugs with Teflon tape and have never had one seize up

That sounds like a great idea for reducing grease interfering with ignition, thanks!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

That sounds like a great idea for reducing grease interfering with ignition, thanks!

Quite a few guys doing that. I tried it myself and It works fine but i went back to the antiseize. I think most people are putting on way too much, it takes so little. A pea sized dab of anti seize is enough for almost any plug. Loctite is the same, you need much less than you think. But the teflon tape does work great.

 

[Ax Handle]

I too am questioning my recent scoped CVA 50 cal LRx choice, not from a safety pov, but from an accuracy pov. the best i have been able to achieve so far is 2.25 inches at 100 yards swabbing between shots with a variety of bullets/loads. its fine for 150 yards and in i suppose, but i had hopes of making this a 300 yard gun. may have to throw in the towel after hunting season and try a knight or custom.

 

[txhunter58]

I emailed CVA and asked them what exactly is their accuracy guarantee. They have not replied. And that was about a month ago….

 

[ElDiablo]

Welcome! All good advice so far. It’s easy to be excessively cautious when getting into muzzleloading. Many of us are experimenting with smokeless muzzys - which is considerably more dangerous. Nothing you’re doing sounds unsafe to me.

With a conventional rifle, common bullets and moderate loads of 777 and a witness mark on your ramrod you’re unlikely to have any safety issues. Continue to be thoughtful but have fun!

 

[GBG]

I've owned heavy recoiling guns for 40 years now, and the Shooter's Friend recoil pad has allowed me to keep shooting them without pain. I use one on several guns, including my Knight TK2000.

http://www.shootersfriend.com/phone/index.html

 

[kunsangsean]

Thanks again for the support, I really appreciate the help and it's definitely eased my mind. I got out again shooting today and things went pretty smooth this time. I changed the recoil pad like a few of you mentioned, and that made a big difference. I'm using the Williams western precision globe sight, and I had to do some creative drilling of the ramp that came with the gun since the Williams ramp was way too tall. I don't know why they sell it saying it fits certain guns that it doesn't - but I see others have had that problem too. Either way, finally got her sighted in and throwing 1-2 inch groups at 100 yards and I'm pretty happy with that for now.

 

[kunsangsean]

Welcome from Oklahoma.
Good advice given. All I could add is that burnt Triple 7 builds up just ahead of the breech plug, creating the notorious crud ring. Even after one shot it could make for difficult loading of a second shot.
Always best to swab the barrel after every shot.
Don't be afraid to push those musket caps firmly on the nipple.
Best of luck during your hunting season.

I had read about the triple 7 crud ring. Is Pyrodex better in that regard or pretty similar? In Idaho muzzleloader seasons I don't believe blackhorn 209 is an option since we can't use 209 primers or closed ignition.

I have been pushing the caps on firmly and have been getting them to go off every time now