New Powders for easy cleaning

[Muley Hunter]

Are you trying to say a 10 oz bottle of BH is the same volume as a 16 oz bottle of T7?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Are you trying to say a 10 oz bottle of BH is the same volume as a 16 oz bottle of T7?

That's not what I said or implied above. 8 - 10oz bottles equals 5#. Please read my response and review the math above.

You're comparing TWO completely different measures. If BH cost $45 a container, but it came in a 16oz container would it be a better deal for you?
I think the difference is, you may be displeased because it comes in 10oz containers instead of 16oz containers. It costs more to manufacturer.

A Kia is cheaper than a Corvette.

 

[rangerod]

WOW. What a hot issue. I love it.

 

[Muley Hunter]

I think you misunderstood my post. I said that BH buyers have been brainwashed into thinking a bottle of powder is 10 oz, because that's how BH comes. So, when they look at a 5lb jug of BH it seems like a good deal, because it's 8 bottles of BH, but BH is only 10 oz.

A 5lb jug of BH may be a good deal compared to buying it by the bottle, but it's still a bad deal compared to other powders. I can buy 5lbs of Pyrodex for $90. 5lbs of BP for $65. 5lbs of T7 for $125. BH is $225 minimum.

I use BH in inlines, because of no swabbing in the field. Some will say you only take one shot while hunting if you're any good. Well, I say to that...........they aren't coyote hunters.

However, I don't waste BH practicing. I use Pyrodex to practice. I do that by sighting in the gun with BH. I use my hunting load. Then I leave the sights alone, and shoot Pyro with different powder loads until it shoots the same POI. I then practice with that load of Pyro, and the gun stays sighted in for my BH hunting load.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Those prices for what I shoot, would cost me 22¢ more a shot using BH. Hardly breaking the bank for a non-hydroscopic propellant needing no swabbing between shots, consistent in form, more energetic, easier and cheaper to clean propellant.

Nothing else to do on a Sunday night........

 

[Muley Hunter]

I wouldn't use BH if it didn't have advantages over other powders. Trying to survive on an SS check won't let me use it all the time. So, I save it for hunting.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I wouldn't use BH if it didn't have advantages over other powders. Trying to survive on an SS check won't let me use it all the time. So, I save it for hunting.

Good point. I know what SS is also, however I was lucky enough to have a pension from 31 years on the job. Of course then our governor decided that those who had pensions of any kind, should start paying State income taxes on their pensions (we never had that before), which took away another $150 a month.

For what and how I shoot, BH would actually provide me with more shots per 5# container than would T7, thus the slight cost. It takes me 180grs of T7 to get what 134grs of BH will get me. I'd get only 194 shots from 5# of T7, where I'd get 261 shots from 5# of BH.

NOTE: I SHOOT A CUSTOM RIFLE DESIGNED TO SHOOT THAT MUCH PROPELLANT. FOR THOSE WHO ARE SHOOTING PRODUCTION RIFLES, THESE SAME CHARGES COULD/WOULD BE VERY DANGEROUS IN YOUR PRODUCTION RIFLES. DO NOT ATTEMPT CHARGES THIS HEAVY.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Dad and I each bought a 10oz container of BH 209 when we started with muzzleloaders. As we decided to try for elk using our ML this year and knew we'd be testing several loads we went ahead and bought a 5 pound container of BH 209 so that we wouldn't run out and wouldn't worry about lot numbers. So far it has worked out very well, and if anyone is serious about BH209 I would highly recommend buying it this way once you get past your first 10 oz bottle. Many local distributors/shops don't know it comes in 5 pound canisters but are more than willing to order one if you don't mind waiting for their next order. Often that is less expensive than paying the HazMat yourself.

I have found BH 209 easy to use, and we have never used anything else. With a 5# container it will end up being about $.40-45 per shot assuming an average of 77 grains by weight (110 by volume). Given that Barnes T-EZ bullets are ~$1 each the cost of the powder isn't the most expensive part of pulling the trigger. I'll spend a lot more driving to NM one way than we will on all bullets, powder and primers used prior to and during the hunt, and once we have the pet loads we're good to go for the future too.

 

[GM54-120]

I still cant figure out how my 45cals will shoot a loose fitting 45cal bullet without a sabot just fine. It will also shoot a 460-488gr slip fit conical just fine. My ULA ignites it just fine even with a Harvester smooth sabot and .4505 bullet. Thats roughly only .002 over land. The majority of these loads have been shot with standard primers and not mags. 3 different breach plugs, Knight/Lehigh, Savage and ULA.

Must be the breach plugs and excellent primer fit :huh?:

 

[Aquastang]

While true that many shoot BH to get velocity gains, I do not believe that one has to go "magnum" with BH to get performance. 80 gr BH, Barnes 250 Expander, W209 primer in my MK-95....pinging the 6" plate at 200 all day long.

Same load but with 240 XTP in LK-93....pinging plate at 200 again. Yes, I shoot BH in a plunger...bare primer breech plug...no issues.

A friend has a CVA Wolf that shoots the same load as the LK-93 almost as well.

Maybe these are exceptions, but I doubt it.

If I don't have the bp for BH in a certain gun, then I shoot T7. I like both powders fine as the deer taken with either powder have declined comment on their preference. oke:

 

[hawgslayer]

I've been reading these replies and come up with 2 things concerning this thread.
1. Black horn 209 is a rip off :!: :!:
2. Black horn 209 has some negative sides to it like all the others.

IMHO gents, it all boils down money. I base that on these issues.
Black horn is the most expensive powder out there. 10 ounce tubes opposed to 16 ounces like all the other powders out there. $35.00 for 10 ounces is a lot but this is what you get IMHO.......................

Consistency like no other powder...........No swabbing the barrel while shooting.............Shooting as many as 50 rounds or more WITH OUT having to swab at all. My 50th Barnes Spit Fire TE-Z 290 grain with it's blue sabot went down the barrel with just as mush EASE as the first and that goes for the Mono Flex 250 grain with it's red sabot............. The only time I had a crud/burn ring was before I switched to BH209..............IMHO, magnum loads aren't necessary. You can shoot 100 or 110 grains ( by volume ) and kill deer at 200 yards every day. (Magnum loads with loose powder waste more powder then what gets burned). As far as clean up goes. It takes me less time with fewer patches then I used when I shoot T7, APP/JSG or Pyordex loose or pellets. There was swabbing after 2 shots and the burn ring was unbelievable. Not with Black horn 209. ( Once again IMHO, T7 was the best out of those that I just mentioned. T7 would be my next choice of powder. It is a pretty good powder and not as dirty as the others ).
If I didn't have to pull the BREECH PLUG after every 6 to 8 shots and clear it from carbon, I would say the BH 209 if flawless for what you get. So I'll give it a 99 out of 100 for being the best out there. It's like anything else. You don't like the channel on tv, change it. If you find BH209 to expensive, don't buy it. Just remember, you get what you pay for.............. :huh?:

Ray............ :yeah:
I like it. I shoot it. As far as the price goes, for me it eliminates all the crap you have to do to keep shooting and that gives me more time to shoot and have fun................ :yeah:

 

[WV Hunter]

I've been reading these replies and come up with 2 things concerning this thread.
1. Black horn 209 is a rip off :!: :!:
2. Black horn 209 has some negative sides to it like all the others.

IMHO gents, it all boils down money. I base that on these issues.
Black horn is the most expensive powder out there. 10 ounce tubes opposed to 16 ounces like all the other powders out there. $35.00 for 10 ounces is a lot but this is what you get IMHO.......................

Consistency like no other powder...........No swabbing the barrel while shooting.............Shooting as many as 50 rounds or more WITH OUT having to swab at all. My 50th Barnes Spit Fire TE-Z 290 grain with it's blue sabot went down the barrel with just as mush EASE as the first and that goes for the Mono Flex 250 grain with it's red sabot............. The only time I had a crud/burn ring was before I switched to BH209..............IMHO, magnum loads aren't necessary. You can shoot 100 or 110 grains ( by volume ) and kill deer at 200 yards every day. (Magnum loads with loose powder waste more powder then what gets burned). As far as clean up goes. It takes me less time with fewer patches then I used when I shoot T7, APP/JSG or Pyordex loose or pellets. There was swabbing after 2 shots and the burn ring was unbelievable. Not with Black horn 209.
If I didn't have to pull the BREECH PLUG after every 6 to 8 shots and clear it from carbon, I would say the BH 209 if flawless for what you get. So I'll give it a 99 out of 100 for being the best out there. It's like anything else. You don't like the channel on tv, change it. If you find BH209 to expensive, don't buy it. Just remember, you get what you pay for.............. :huh?:

Ray............ :yeah:
I like it. I shoot it. As far as the price goes, for me it eliminates all the crap you have to do to keep shooting and that gives me more time to shoot and have fun................ :yeah:

I agree with Ray, and I have to pay over $45/jug at my local shops where I live.

I'm relatively new to BH209, only been a few months. But, I have had no issues igniting it (following the advice of RonL and many others here on the forum.) I have not shot over 100gr yet, and one of my guns will shoot sub MOA accuracy out to 150 so far, with a avg fitting sabot/bullet.

I still shoot pyrodex in my plunger guns and love it. The good thing is we have choices.

 

[Muley Hunter]

"If I don't like the price of BH, don't buy it."

I hate statements like that. Do I have to like the price to use it? I'm not a sheep who just accepts everything when it's wrong. BH is overpriced, and anybody who can't see that needs a reality check. If there was another powder that worked as well, and had a reasonable price. BH would die a slow death.

It's just like the price of gas. We have to have it, so we pay the price they ask. No matter what it is. Western has us by the nuts, and will continue to gouge us.

If I think about this too much i'll go back to using Swiss and swabbing. It's just as consistent as BH.

 

[hawgslayer]

I feel the results you get with BH 209 out weights the cost of the powder. It's the best out there and we all know it. Do I like the price? No, but its the best and naturally you get the best results. Do I like the price of gas? No, but you either buy it or walk or take public transportation.
It all boils down to what I said before, if you can afford it, then buy it. If you feel it's way out of line with the price then don't buy it. I for one will continue to buy and use it because the results are second to none.

Ray........... :yeah:

 

[GM54-120]

Blackhorn209 is roughly 10% lighter than Triple7 but we dont buy powder by volume.

100grV Triple7= 77.7gr by weight (hence the name)
100grV BH209= 70gr by weight

It also produces better fps than Triple7 with heavier bullets. So if you goal is XXXXfps, your cost per shot may not be that much more than Triple7 per shot.

 

[Squeeze]

I hope another company DOES come out with something comparable. But when/if they do, it will probably also be priced comparably. after over a decade now, the market has been set. It pretty much comes down to, Someone has built a better mousetrap. The world will lead a path.... I don't LIKE the price of most anything I buy today. I cant even seem to get out of a grocery store for under $300, with one cart. Its pure crazy when I go shopping for the boat before an offshore trip. 4-5 carts and drivers just sweeping the shelves clear. The register numbers spinning like a slot machine wheel. Sometimes it seems there's a vacuum line hooked directly to my wallet. I dont have to like it, but I DO have to take it. Hating the price of beef don't seem to make it any cheaper. But at least there is always pork or chicken...

 

[Muley Hunter]

Hating the price of beef is one of the reasons I hunt. :wink:

 

[GM54-120]

Its like all the other commodities. When you find a good deal, buy in bulk for future use. I have $28 or less in each of my 10oz bottles and even less in my 5lber. No different than getting a whole brisket or full slab of pork belly vs part of one and saving over a $1 per pound.

 

[sabotloader]

One of the cost problems can be contributed to fact that the powder is built by General Dynamics in Canada and is imported into the US. Getting it across the border costs $$$$. Which you know are passed on to the consumer.

I personally think BH is a great powder but I use very little of it is just to expensive per shot to justify it when I can use a less expensive powder to accomplish approximately what BH provides. Yes, BH is more simple to use to most but the little extra effort is not a problem for me.

 

[ronlaughlin]

.....If I didn't have to pull the BREECH PLUG after every 6 to 8 shots and clear it from carbon, I would say the BH 209 if flawless for what you get. So I'll give it a 99 out of 100 for being the best out there......

Man, i wish i had your life.

Actually, you don't have to pull the plug to clean the flame channel.... Actually you don't need to clean the flame channel ever 8 shots, that is just is your way of doing things. Me, i have shot in the range of 30 shots more than once, without cleaning the flame channel. Perhaps it is just me, but i don't consider having to pull the plug after 8 shots a Blackhorn issue; it is a Ray issue isn't it?

Oh, one more thing before i quit picking your nit.... Sometimes i enlarge the flame channel using a 5/32" drill; this may allow you to go 12 shots without pulling the plug?

Good post Ray!