New Renegade with Lewis's bullets.

[Idaholewis]

I wonder if the smaller piece of lead/bullet is causing the lower reading?
I don't doubt the hardness from BACO I'm just trying to understand the difference. Did you try a bullet filing it off?

I would bet it’s the Smaller Sample (Bullet) that’s causing it, Out of curiosity I will test a Bullet, I have some that were Casted from the exact same Batch that i sent you, I will Test 1 or 2 of them Today and post back the Results.

I have always wondered about these testers, How accurate they are from 1 unit to another? Is it possible the Spring “Relaxes” over time? As for the Dial, they Shouldn't be a Problem? They are a simple Machinist Dial, These ones are Cheap Chinese Dials, But they work good. Outfits like Starrett & Mititoyo make REALLY nice Dials that would be a Direct fit, and Read identical (VERY Expensive) But i don’t see these Cheap dials as the “Weak Link“ here? But i do question the Springs

 

[idahoron]

I remember us talking about differences between units. I would tend to believe that differences between springs could go back to manufacturing of the spring. I filed off both the nose and the base to .950 over all length.
I have never ran a test like this against machine to machine, against bullet and a ingot if known hardness. It will be interesting to see. I was involved in a test against bullets but no ingots.
I remember Gussy, the man that made them worried less about the actual BHN. He worried more about getting the same hardness results so he could replicate the hardness for the bullets that shot the best.
He actually lived here in Buhl for a while.

 

[LR_Smoker]

FWIW I would verify that both units use the exact same pitch on the threads. They must be identical at what I estimate to be 10 TPI ( .100 ) per revolution plus both springs must have the same compression force at the identical distance compressed to give identical results from the same test specimen. If the person using the gauge varies the rotation by a small amount it show up on the indicator right away but what is exactly 360 degrees when you are adjusting by eye.
The hardness tester I designed and built uses a toggle link to ensure the exact same stroke each time and I use the exact same bullet to position the spring plunger relative to the end travel of the ram. This should allow for consistent results over various bullet lengths. I will be the first to admit that I cannot guarantee a certain reading results in a specific bhn until I collect a lot more data on specific known alloys but it’s what I have at this time.

 

[idahoron]

The big thing for me is if this hardness shoots well, and it looks like it will. I will want to replicate that hardness. And in this case it really doesn't matter what that official hardness is, as long as I can replicate it.

 

[idahoron]

It would be awesome to be able to drive to BACO like you do
I ordered a pig of lead from Rotometal. It had to be re-boxed by the USPS. Man were they pissed.

 

[idahoron]

I have a lot of lead under 8 BHN on my tester. And about 800 pounds of wheel weight hard lead.

 

[LR_Smoker]

Like you said Ron , the only important thing is that you can replicate the reading you got on Lewis’s bullets. It’s only a number for hardness evaluation that’s all.
Could be the reading if different because you apply more pressure to hold the bullet for your “0”. Doesn’t matter worth a hoot as long as you use the same process each time you take a reading. You guys are two of the most dedicated and disciplined people that I know and I’m sure you will make a successful load using those bullets.

 

[Idaholewis]

I absolutely agree, these testers are a reference point. That said, my Cabin Tree Lead Hardness Tester does Run right with BACO’s Stamp CERTIFIED Alloys, I have tested their PURE Lead, 1-20 Alloy, 1-40 Alloy, and Lyman #2, Numerous times and the Numbers i get on my Dial are SPOT ON with what the Chart to Alloy Shows the Dial should be on.

Ron’s is a MUCH Older Tester than mine, Mine is the newer version after the Company was Sold here
https://cowboybullets.3dcartstores.com/
Who knows what kind of Changes, if any were made to these Testers after the Company was Sold? I know the Chart that came with mine was different than Ron’s, In fact Ron sent me Copies of 2 Different Charts, I laminated them, and they are what i go by with my Tester

 

[idahoron]

Having BACO in your back yard is an awesome benefit. I would love that.

 

[Bushfire]

Interesting thread, slight digression but if you guys get that kind of difference in POI with your cold bore/clean bore shot what are you doing in the field when hunting?

 

[idahoron]

Interesting thread, slight digression but if you guys get that kind of difference in POI with your cold bore/clean bore shot what are you doing in the field when hunting?

All of my hunting rifles are good to go on the first shot. Even this one was good considering the wind I was dealing with. I hunt with a clean barrel.

 

[Idaholewis]

Having BACO in your back yard is an awesome benefit. I would love that.

That place is like a 2nd Home, I spend a Fair amount of Coin at BACO

 

[Idaholewis]

Interesting thread, slight digression but if you guys get that kind of difference in POI with your cold bore/clean bore shot what are you doing in the field when hunting?

The only thing that causes a BAD POI Change is a DEEP Steam Cleaning through the Breech, And “Slip Fit” Paper Patch Bullets. This proved DISASTROUS for me

Ron should remember this, I was talking to him everyday as i was Battling this Issue, Neither of us could understand what was Happening?

I missed this ENTIRE Target at 50 Yards for 3 Days in a Row with the Cold Clean Bore Shot, I have NO idea where the Cold Bore Shot was going? But it was off by FEET, This Target was like 3 Ft X 3 Ft Square and i never Touched it CRAZY!! After the AWOL Cold Bore, They would Group right in the Center.

 

[Idaholewis]

It was SO dry out when i was Shooting the Above Target Several years ago that I couldn’t tell where the Cold Bore Bullet was Hitting? I was by myself, and no Camera back then. It is stil a Mystery to this day as to what was happening? The remedy ended up being SIMPLE, I STOPPED Steam Cleaning through the Breech, And Simply Cleaned in a Bucket of Regular Tap Water. The Problem went AWAY, My Cold Clean Bore shots hit in the Center where they were suppose to

I stil use my Steam Cleaners on a REGULAR Basis, But this is also why i NEVER put the Cold Clean Bore shot on Target, I usually throw away 2 Shots, Then start my Group. And I NEVER EVER Steam Clean through the Breech of a Barrel that i plan to Hunt with, Or if i had, i make sure and Shoot that Barrel 3 or 4 Days in a Row, Cleaning in a Bucket of Tap Water ONLY, and paying CLOSE attention to the Cold Clean Bore Shot each Day

 

[Bushfire]

@Idaholewis that is bloody bizarre mate, and really perplexing. Do you have any ideas about what the steam clean did to it to make it that way?

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I wonder why the steam cleaning changes things so drastically.
Would you recommend steam cleaning a hunting rifle after the season is over or just stay with the old bucket cleaning.

 

[Idaholewis]

@Idaholewis that is bloody bizarre mate, and really perplexing. Do you have any ideas about what the steam clean did to it to make it that way?

I wish i did, but I don’t? I just know that it caused me a LOT of Headaches & Frustration, and I didn’t trust my Rifle to Hunt that Year. I bedded my Barrel Channel, Played with Wedge key Tightness, Anything that I thought might cause a problem? I messed with it! But to no avail

I have not revisited this situation to try and understand it? I have said that i was going to, But haven’t done it. If anything, Just to show everyone how BADLY it effects the Cold Bore Shot. It seems like the Problem was Worse with my Paper Patch Bullets than Grease Groove, But it’s been long enough ago that I can’t remember exactly?

 

[Idaholewis]

I wonder why the steam cleaning changes things so drastically.
Would you recommend steam cleaning a hunting rifle after the season is over or just stay with the old bucket cleaning.

It’s MIND BLOWING when you COMPLETELY miss a 3 FT X 3 FT SQUARE Target at ONLY 50 Yards Several Days in a Row with your Cold Clean Bore Shot, Trying to prepare to Hunt. Talk about a Confidence @ss Kicker

After the Season is over I ALWAYS deep Steam Clean my Barrel (Through the Breech end). That is just my Method, I have 2 Good Bore Scopes that prove this Method is superior to a Bucket of Water Cleaning. A steam cleaning gets EVERYTHING out, Stuff you had NO IDEA was there? That a Bucket of Water Cleaning can NOT Touch

This is back when i was Cleaning in a Bucket of Water ONLY, This came from a Barrel that i knew for absolute sure was as clean as I could possibly get it, The Bore that is This Crap came from the Flame Channel/Patented Breech, After a Deep Steam Cleaning, Talk about Shocked This is when I realized how Superior a Steam Cleaner is to the Ole Bucket of Water Push/Pull method

Attached to a “Flush Nipple” I don’t do this anymore, No need, I simply point the Nozzle of the Steam Cleaner in the Nipple Hole (Nipple Removed of course)

Again, This Crap came from a Barrel that i had CLEAN Or at least I thought so I did have the Bore VERY Clean, This came from the Fire Channel/Patented Breech

 

[Idaholewis]

Anyone that might dispute the Steam Cleaner through the Breech “They didn’t do that in the Olden Days, Etc. Etc.” You are correct they didn’t, As they didn’t have this Technology Back then, Do you think they would have used this Technology if it had been available? I think that answer is Clear

But since they didn’t have the above technology, I would bet EVERYTHING I OWN that they had this in the Breech end of their Rifles As They had no way to get it COMPLETELY Clean

 

[Idaholewis]

Is that Crud left in the Fire channel/Patented Breech that you can NOT CLEAN using the Old Fashion Bucket of Tap Water, Push/Pull Siphon Method, gonna Ruin our Barrel? Not likely in our Lifetime, But since i have the means to Clean it out thoroughly, Why not do so? That’s how i see it anyway.

I use the Bucket of Tap Water to Clean the Bore, But to get the Breech end THOROUGHLY Clean, to match the Bore, I go through the Breech end with my Hand held Steam Cleaner. When i am done, and the Barrel is BONE Dry, I coat thoroughly with a Quality Gun oil, til i see it Come out the Nipple Hole

I also understand the Guy’s that want to Play PC (Period Correct) And clean in Tap water ONLY, There Barrel will likely outlast them