newbie looking for target rounds...

[atjurhs]

Hi guys,

I'm a complete and total newbie to muzzeloading.

Anyways, I got all excited and bought me a CVA Optima V2, and a Nixon 3-9 40mm.

I watched the CVA/Powerbelt YouTube videos and I bought Aerolite 250gr. bullets, WhiteLighting powder pellets and Winchester 209 primers. All that was pretty expensive with the Aerolites costing the most. So I'd like to find some bullets to shoot at targets on the range. Bullets that would be significantly less expensive than the Aerolites, but not junk, accurate out to 100yds (that's how long my range is).

Can someone point me to some bullets that will work?

THANKS!

 

[ronlaughlin]

These bullets, and these sabot. A problem being they may be more accurate than the powerbelt, and they may be more effective than the powerbelt.

 

[cayuga]

Purchase in bulk. Sabots come in 50 count and bullets, depending on size can come in 50-100 count. Get some 240 or 300 grain XTPs and some .452 black Harvester sabots. They will be cheaper to shoot. And more effective for hunting. Also some other bullets are 240 grains Cheap Shots, 250 grain XTPs, and the Deep Curl bullets.

 

[atjurhs]

Do plastic sabot rounds foul the lands and grooves with plastic residue? I think that's what the Powerbelt guys were saying, so that's why I bought the 250 Aerolites

Where do I find these XTP, Harvester, and Deep Curl bullets?

I ordered my stuff on-line from Cabelas. My local Gander Mtn. Dick's sporting goods, and the local gunshops has very very little supply of any Muzzeloader stuff.

Can you please list out a few different websites that sells Muzzeloader stuff.

What about Conical bullets, are they a good choice for target practice?

Thanks for your info, I really appreciate it!

 

[GM54-120]

No, sabot fouling is a myth with modern sabots. PBs have a plastic skirt.

Cabelas stocks Harvester sabots and XTPs. They should be fairly easy to find but they might be out of stock or backordered. Both are currently in stock at Cabelas.

Ron gave you the link in his reply to another vendor called Grafs. I know they stock Harvester sabots, its where i buy mine.

250gr XTPs
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... uctId/6552
Harvester Smooth Black Sabots
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... uctId/5481

 

[Squeeze]

for cheap target, ive used about anything in a .45 long colt and sabots are pretty similar in price. I keep a good supply in several styles for different guns. I started casting ML specific bullets, and the accuracy is fine for me. ill be hunting with them this year also.

 

[atjurhs]

So I went to the Graf & Sons muzzeload website, and I have a couple of questions. btw, thanks for being supportive and helpingout a total newbie learning! and a newbie even to hunting.

What does the with 44c in this bullet description mean?

HARVESTER XTP 50cal SABOT w/44c 240gr BULLET 12/PK

since I already have the Powerbelt 250gr Aerolite bullets, I'll plan to use them for hunting, I think they should be deadly enough.

next question, if the target range bullets that I get (let's say the HARVESTER XTP) are not 250gr would it be better to go down in weight with 240gr or up in weight with a 260gr ? My hunting area does not enable me for shots more than 100yds. So the target range practice rounds and the Powerbelt 250gr Aerolite bullets only need to be accurate/comparable out to 100yds.

final question (for this post ) The WightLightning pellets are pretty pricey compared to other pellets I've seen (and I don't want to use powder, just pellets) what would be a cheaper solution and still maintain my accuracy/requirement comparrison out to a 100yds or am I just changing too many things at one time for the 100yd accuracy/requirement comparrison and should stick with the WightLightning pellets for now?

THANKS again, for all your help, I'm having fun learning!

Todd

 

[atjurhs]

like maybe the Hogdon Pyrodex or the Hogdon Triple 7 pellets, idk, but they are certainly cheaper than the WhiteLighting pellets

thanks again, Todd

 

[GM54-120]

Why use any pellets if the goal is cheaper cost per shot? BTW its called a WhiteHot pellet. Loose Triple7 powder is much cheaper per shot and sold at many stores. Its also easier to work up a accurate load. Its much easier to work up a target load since you can vary the charge to more than just 50, 60 or 80 grains. Triple7 pellets come in 2 sizes 30gr and 50gr but the 30gr is not as common.

The HARVESTER XTP 50cal SABOT w/44c 240gr BULLET 12/PK is just what is says, a 44cal bullet with a sabot. Green sabots are usually for 44caliber bullets. Black sabots are usually for .451-452 caliber bullets. Both will usually fit a 50 caliber BORE but they come in different outside diameters. The sabots me and Ron gave you a link to usually fit the Optima bore well and shoot well.

I strongly prefer using a 45cal bullet in sabots but some people have good luck with 44cal bullets in the correct sabot. Why are you even looking at prepackaged bullets when loose sabots and bulk bullets are cheaper? Bulk bullets and sabots are the same just sold separately for less $$$$.

You wanted cheaper but you keep looking at the more expensive options. Pellets and prepackaged bullets/sabots will always cost more. Triple7 pellets or Pyro pellets are cheaper than WhiteHots.

 

[atjurhs]

sorry for the miss-nomenclature of WhiteLighting and WhiteHot.

so being 100% new to all this, I'd like to make small changes and one at a time as I learn. That's the reason I want to stay with pellets for now. They're easier, and something less I have to learn much about at least for now. As I progress in the hobby, I'll probably step throug the door to loose powder, just not yet.

so what I understand is that if I buy a 45cal slug and black plastic sabot coverings, it will shoot out of my 50cal Optima V2 ?

ok, then also what about the 100yd range accuracy question of shooting the 240gr or 260gr in comparisson to the 250gr AeroLites that I already have, and the Hogdon Pyrodex or the Hogdon Triple 7 pellets vs. the WhiteHot pellets that I already have.

 

[ShawnT]

Welcome to the forum!

There is one thing I might be missing from your posts. I understand you are new to this sport, but have you shot the rifle yet with the components you just bought?

The bullets that are pre-packaged are really pistol bullets that were put in a sabot and packaged up to sell as muzzleloader bullets, the prepackaging is just another way to boost cost. Most of our muzzleloaders are shooting at about the same velocity as pistol bullets. So the XTPs would be a great choice and are more available at the moment than some of the others, lot cheaper and have harvested more deer than any Powerbelt probably has. I don't think anyone can tell you that the Powerbelts will shoot more accurately for sure, if you have not shot them yet don't get too hung up on the CVA videos, lots of marketing hype goes into the Powerbelt. XTP bullets can shoot just as good or better and are a lot cheaper to buy in bulk.

I understand your are new to this sport but, as for accuracy at 100 yards, you have already handicapped yourself by staying with pellets. I am not saying that you can't get your rifle to shoot good using pellets but the bullet, sabot, and charge all work together to make an accurate load and any one of them can cause you to not shoot accurately. A bullet that don't shoot with say 2 pellets may shoot much better with just a 10 grain increase in powder, but can't be made with Pellets. Also you have to know that pellets don't come in a "Sealed" container and they can draw moisture just sitting on the shelf and that will cause accuracy to fall off. Loose powder is sold in sealed containers. The idea that loose powder is "Harder or more difficult" to use is just not true. All you need is bottle funnel and a volume measure. You can even take small vials and pre-charge them with measured charges at home before going to the range. I did the pellet thing when I first got an inline. Did not take me too long to switch back to Loose powder and will not go back.

It is a good idea to make one change at a time, but you can do the same thing starting out with loose. Just drop say 80 grains of powder and shoot 3 rounds. change up to 90 grains and use the same bullet or just increase in 5 grain increments. You don't see accuracy you want, start at 80 grains again but now change the bullet or the sabot but only one thing at a time.

 

[atjurhs]

Hi Shawn, thanks so much for your help!

Yep 100% newbie, the rifle and other muzzeloading stuff (bullets, pellets, etc) are in the mail. I based my purchases on the CVA YouTube video, I probably should have done my "homework" before I bought stuff :d'oh!:

So now I'm in the boat of learning muzzeloading stuff, mostly from this site....

here's the list of stuff I bought:

CVA OPTIMA V2 50 CAL BLU/BLK-ISM OPTIMAV2 50 BL/BKISM
INLINE XR 3-9X40 BDC 300 MATTE
WHITE HOT .50 CAL PELLETS
Winchester Triple Se7en Muzzleloading Primers/500 209 PRIMERS 500 PACK
BPI AEROLITE 50CAL POWERBELT BULLETS POWERBELT 50CAL 250G
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES QUICK CLEAN PATCH
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES RUST PREV SPRAY
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES ANTI-SEIZE STICK
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES RUST PREV PATCH
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES SOLVENT SPRAY
CVA POWERBELT BULLET STARTER

All this stuff is supposed to work together. What else do I need, probably cleaning items?

Thanks again! Todd

 

[ShawnT]

Hi Shawn, thanks so much for your help!

Yep 100% newbie, the rifle and other muzzeloading stuff (bullets, pellets, etc) are in the mail. I based my purchases on the CVA YouTube video, I probably should have done my "homework" before I bought stuff :d'oh!:

So now I'm in the boat of learning muzzeloading stuff, mostly from this site....

here's the list of stuff I bought:

CVA OPTIMA V2 50 CAL BLU/BLK-ISM OPTIMAV2 50 BL/BKISM
INLINE XR 3-9X40 BDC 300 MATTE
WHITE HOT .50 CAL PELLETS
Winchester Triple Se7en Muzzleloading Primers/500 209 PRIMERS 500 PACK
BPI AEROLITE 50CAL POWERBELT BULLETS POWERBELT 50CAL 250G
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES QUICK CLEAN PATCH
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES RUST PREV SPRAY
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES ANTI-SEIZE STICK
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES RUST PREV PATCH
CVA BARREL BLASTER CLEANING ACCESSORIES SOLVENT SPRAY
CVA POWERBELT BULLET STARTER

All this stuff is supposed to work together. What else do I need, probably cleaning items?

Thanks again! Todd

We have all been where you are now so you came to the right place for some good info and coaching. I think someone said that the White Hots are the same a 777 just don't have the Black component, might have that mixed up with Pyrodex but don't think so. If you don't plan to use or can't use Blackhorn 209 powder, then you can save a lot of money on cleaning supplies with the subs (777 pellets or loose, APP, or Pyrodex pellets or loose) by just using good ole Windex. You can lightly dampen a patch with it and swab between shots or soak a patch and scrub the bore. All the subs and real Black can be cleaned with simple soap and hot water. Windex is used quite a bit here, since it is easy to use at the range and cheap, some even mix it with Alcohol. Then follow your cleaning when you are done for the day with a good oil.

I don't have a current CVA, I have an old sidelock, but they have been shooting very well, so looks like you are starting off with good equipment that can last you a lifetime. Just beware of one thing...........This Sport is quite Addicting! :lol:

There are several Stickies at the top of this forum that will provide a great deal of info. If you have not done so you should check them out. Any questions ask away, there is a ton of info from some great guys always willing to help here.

 

[Aquastang]

Todd,
You've gotten quite a bit of good information so far. But, I just as well add my 2 cents.

If you are going to stay with pellets for now, make sure that you do not "over seat" the bullet. Push it down the bore until is seats on top of the pellets but don't push so hard that it crushes them. Then run a knife blade around the ramrod at the muzzle so you know the proper seating depth every time. This will help you be more accurate with pellets. When the pellets are gone, I would suggest going to Triple 7 powder or Blackhorn 209 if your gun will shoot it.

Cost wise, stay with XTPs in bulk and Harvester or MMP sabots in bulk. Harvesters can be purchased in stores like Cabelas, etc. and MMPs can be ordered from their website. Also, I like to buy bulk bags of "generic" patches for cleaning...a little cheaper than name brand....or start cutting up old t-shirts. After your primers are gone, I would go with regular Winchester 209 or CCI 209 primers...again, a little cheaper than what you currently have. As far as oil, I like Breakfree CLP in the dripper bottles, but there are many good oils out there.

Above all else, enjoy the ride! You will gain more knowledge from reading this forum and shooting. You will find powders, sabots, bullets, etc. that you want to try. It's all part of the journey. In the end, a muzzleloader addiction is really a blessing.

Best of luck,
Doug

 

[atjurhs]

Thanks Doug!

I've had the archery addiction bug for over 17 years, I figure it's time to add another and women are too expensive :lol:

 

[GM54-120]

Words of caution.

Those 250gr Powerbelt Aerolites are a fairly fragile bullet. They may shoot good but high velocity at closer ranges they can react like a varmint bullet. Stay off the shoulder and keep shots to the broadside heart/double lung variety. Two Whitehots should not be excessively fast, its actually fairly slow by modern standards.

Take two WhiteHots, a Powerbelt and call me in the morning is the salesman's way of saying he is clueless about modern ML potential. Its their sales pitch that management encourages them to regurgitate. Places like Cabelas and Bass Pro are some of the worst when it comes to this behavior because they know it has a higher profit margin than buying 100 rounds in bulk and 1lb of loose Triple7. Those WinT7 and KleenBore primers are roughly twice the price too but at least they have some value if you choose Triple7.

 

[atjurhs]

At the closest "local" Gander Mtn. store, the 777 pellets and the Pyrodex pellets are cheaper than the WhiteHot pellets I got online. So I'll switch over to one of those (don't know the pros/cons of either but I'll start reading the threads) once my White hot pellets are gone. Also the XTP rounds are significantly cheaper than the Aerolites (and the same Gander Mtn. store has them).

so can one of you guys point me to the pros/cons of shooting sabots as lite as 240gr or lower, and something as heavy as 300gr or higher

and the same for the 777 pellets vs. the Pyrodex pellets

you guys are really great sharing your expertise and knowledge

Todd

 

[GM54-120]

Dont be fooled by weight. A Hornady 240gr .452 bullet is a MAG and has a very thick jacket. The 250gr .452 XTP is a NON MAG. The .430 240gr XTP is also a NON MAG even though it is made for 44mag. The 240gr .452 is made for rounds like the 454 Casull which is a beast compared to a 44mag. The .452 250gr XTP is made for 45Colt which can be loaded semi hot in some handguns.

Most .45cal bullets lighter than 240gr are made for 45ACP which is a low velocity round. Normally sub 1000fps so those bullets expand too fast at ML speeds. If you want lighter .452 bullets, look at Barnes. They are made from solid copper and wont fragment. The Barnes 45LC 225gr XPB is a great light weight bullet for deer. Ive shot them more than double the intended speed and they hold together beautifully.

300gr bullets are a bit better for longer ranges because they retain more energy and some guns just shoot them better. They usually penetrate better also because they have a better sectional density than a lighter bullet. They are a good choice for tougher game than deer but they kill deer just fine too.

The biggest advantage of a 250gr bullet in a sabot vs a 250gr full bore bullet is sectional density and ballistic coefficient. They fly better (less drop) and penetrate better than the same weight full bore bullet. A Sabotted round can also normally achieve a higher muzzle velocity when compared to most full bore 50cal bullets. There are some exceptions to the norm such as Thor bullets they are solid copper conicals. They can be shot quite fast and still perform extremely well.

 

[atjurhs]

Thanks GM54-120

I don't yet fully understand all that you've shared, but I'll get there...

I did find the ChuckHawks website, and there's seems to be (at least to this newbie) pretty good info. Again, I don't yet fully understand all that is written there, but I will...

Todd

 

[atjurhs]

what do you all think about the "Extreme Elite" sabot bullets by http://www.prbullet.com/

They're comparable in price to XTPs.

oh, and after doing some more reading, I think I will shoot 300gr bullets. From what I've read, it sounds like 330 to 350gr bullets would take their toll on your shoulder on a day at the range