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I use a duplex of 11 gr/59 gr VV N110/H322 or 10 gr/50 gr IMR SR4759/H4198. I am still using the old inefficient Savage style breechplug with 209 Primers. It has worked so well for me that I have not tried single powders.
 
And another grenade job on an average size doe. Shot her last night at about 40 yrds with the Arrowhead NSR bullet and nothing but mush inside her. Not only was there no exit wound, I couldn't even find the entrance hole??? Obviously it entered somewhere, but damned if I could find it. She ran about 30yrds without a drop of blood, and no blood where I found her laying. We have two more days this weekend for firearm hunting, and another three days in January here in IL so I probably won't get a chance to switch bullets this season, but I will most definitely be switching before next season begins. As much as I love the incredible accuracy and the ability to not have to resize the Arrowhead bullet, I am going to have to make a switch. It seems it's simply all or nothing with these bullets- they either leave me a gaping exit wound or none at all.
 
You don't seem to be shooting long distance, less than 200 yards, so I would seriously try the Barnes TEZs. I use them out to 150 yards with good results.
 
Harley469 said:
Facing a bit of a dilemma with the Arrowhead 300gr NSR bullets I have been using for almost a couple seasons now. I have no complaints about their accuracy at all (have shot them out to 200yrds on deer to this point, and holes touching at the same distance on paper). My concern is with their inconsistent results on deer. I have had anything from six inch exit wounds to no exit holes at all, with massive internal damage. Aside from the destroyed meat, my only real issue is getting that exit wound. For example, at the end of the 2022 hunting season I shot a doe at 10yrds. She dropped on the spot from a shoulder shot; however, there was no exit wound. There was massive internal damage, and the bullet blew to pieces inside her, but I just lost a nice buck recently with not a drop of blood to be found. He actually bedded down about 15yrds after the initial shot behind some brush. I reloaded and continued to wait for him to get up. As the minutes passed it was becoming later and later with darkness approaching. I determined that I couldn't wait any longer and maneuvered for the best shot possible (really a guess at his body position, because all I could see were his antlers). I also had to blow through some brush. The result was probably a miss, and he got up and limped off. I never saw a drop of blood when I went to look. I waited another 3-4 hours to pick up the trail, hoping he might expire in that time frame. There was no blood to be found. I can only assume I hit him in the leg and it wasn't a lethal shot. All that being said, I am looking for a bullet that will completely pass through, leaving me with the best possible blood trail. I liked the 300gr bonded Furys, but accuracy fell apart somewhere between 100 and 200yrds. At 200 yards there was no grouping at all. My rifle builder recommended I switch to the 300gr NSR bullets, which I did and they have been excellent in regard to accuracy, but inconsistent upon impact. I am shooting this bullet using 78grns of H322 out of a 26" Brux barrel with a 1:20 twist. I have also tried IMR 4198 with decent results, but the H322 worked best with both Arrowheads and Furys. I thought about trying a wad above the powder, in conjunction with the Furys but don't want to add that step due to time loss reloading in the field. Thoughts????
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I would try the Barnes. As I did, I would bump up the charge of H322. I would try to keep the pressure high to make sure that I got good "swell" on the bullet
 
jsteurrys said:
You don't seem to be shooting long distance, less than 200 yards, so I would seriously try the Barnes TEZs. I use them out to 150 yards with good results.
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The majority if my shots are going to be under 100yrds, but then I can move to a field or a hillside and have a 200+ shot. I need a bullet for short and long range. I will be trying the Barnes, as well as others. I will be using a wad with the Fury 300gr bonded bullets. I am assuming any all copper bullets are too hard to size??
 
Harley469 said:
Another question for anyone out there- have any of you tried the 100% copper Lehigh Defense ML bullets with smokeless powder?
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No, I find it real hard to switch from the Barnes. I shoot all different kinds of bullets at the range, but always end up staying with the Barnes for hunting. At this point, the only reason I would change if I started hunting a place where shoots longer than 250 yards were a definite possibility.
 
I find the Barnes TEZs run between 0.4502"-0.4509". The majority are between 0.4505"-0.4507". I have to knurl them up to 0.4520" for my barrels. I use dry wool wads also.
 
Harley469 said:
Are you shooting bullet to bore (.45 barrel)?
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I think all those bullets have petals that blow off the bullet when it enters an animal, supposedly going into the vitals, and the core for passing thru the animal. I have a hard time with those petals maybe making it into the paunch or intestines making a mess when the shot itself wasn't in those parts. I like my Barnes but hope to next year collect an animal with a .40 225 grain Fury Star Tip bonded bullet to see what the terminal results are at smokeless speeds.
 
Harley469 said:
Facing a bit of a dilemma with the Arrowhead 300gr NSR bullets I have been using for almost a couple seasons now. I have no complaints about their accuracy at all (have shot them out to 200yrds on deer to this point, and holes touching at the same distance on paper). My concern is with their inconsistent results on deer. I have had anything from six inch exit wounds to no exit holes at all, with massive internal damage. Aside from the destroyed meat, my only real issue is getting that exit wound. For example, at the end of the 2022 hunting season I shot a doe at 10yrds. She dropped on the spot from a shoulder shot; however, there was no exit wound. There was massive internal damage, and the bullet blew to pieces inside her, but I just lost a nice buck recently with not a drop of blood to be found. He actually bedded down about 15yrds after the initial shot behind some brush. I reloaded and continued to wait for him to get up. As the minutes passed it was becoming later and later with darkness approaching. I determined that I couldn't wait any longer and maneuvered for the best shot possible (really a guess at his body position, because all I could see were his antlers). I also had to blow through some brush. The result was probably a miss, and he got up and limped off. I never saw a drop of blood when I went to look. I waited another 3-4 hours to pick up the trail, hoping he might expire in that time frame. There was no blood to be found. I can only assume I hit him in the leg and it wasn't a lethal shot. All that being said, I am looking for a bullet that will completely pass through, leaving me with the best possible blood trail. I liked the 300gr bonded Furys, but accuracy fell apart somewhere between 100 and 200yrds. At 200 yards there was no grouping at all. My rifle builder recommended I switch to the 300gr NSR bullets, which I did and they have been excellent in regard to accuracy, but inconsistent upon impact. I am shooting this bullet using 78grns of H322 out of a 26" Brux barrel with a 1:20 twist. I have also tried IMR 4198 with decent results, but the H322 worked best with both Arrowheads and Furys. I thought about trying a wad above the powder, in conjunction with the Furys but don't want to add that step due to time loss reloading in the field. Thoughts????
Click to expand...
Sounds like you want an all lead conical 🫣
 
You had Barnes originals 300 grn grenade on you? I find that hard to believe...I have literally shot 100s of them with 60 grn of N120 and only ever recovered one as they always passed through....how fast are you pushing them? It just blows my mind as to what speed it took to have a 300 BO blow up..
 
I have not shot the Lehighs with smokeless, but I have shot hundreds of them. Most of the hundreds at targets or clay pigeons but I do shoot them at animals they are an amazing bullet. And yes the petals do come off when they hit a liquid atmosphere. But... in all the animals I have shot I have, nor has the butchers grinding machine ever found a petal. I do suppose it could happen but so so far so good!!!

If you look at the specifications for the bullet it will list the maximum and minimum velocity that it can be shot and stay together or at what velocity is required to open the bullet

Well when Lehigh Dave sold them these numbers were published. Today with Wilson Combat making the bullets I can't remember if they publish the max/min numbers.
 
I know it has happened, but in the years I personally have hunted with the copper Barnes bullets I have never seen a petal shear off. I'm guessing that in the end it really doesn't matter if the petals shed with both bullets being monolithic.... lots of jacketed/lead cored bullets leave lead in a carcass and I've had plenty of occasions to pick that lead out of meat that might otherwise be salvageable.

To be fair Sabotloader, I have shot quite a few on the Lehighs out of my Accura in sabots, and like the Barnes, they're very accurate.
 
Harley469 said:
Facing a bit of a dilemma with the Arrowhead 300gr NSR bullets I have been using for almost a couple seasons now. I have no complaints about their accuracy at all (have shot them out to 200yrds on deer to this point, and holes touching at the same distance on paper). My concern is with their inconsistent results on deer. I have had anything from six inch exit wounds to no exit holes at all, with massive internal damage. Aside from the destroyed meat, my only real issue is getting that exit wound. For example, at the end of the 2022 hunting season I shot a doe at 10yrds. She dropped on the spot from a shoulder shot; however, there was no exit wound. There was massive internal damage, and the bullet blew to pieces inside her, but I just lost a nice buck recently with not a drop of blood to be found. He actually bedded down about 15yrds after the initial shot behind some brush. I reloaded and continued to wait for him to get up. As the minutes passed it was becoming later and later with darkness approaching. I determined that I couldn't wait any longer and maneuvered for the best shot possible (really a guess at his body position, because all I could see were his antlers). I also had to blow through some brush. The result was probably a miss, and he got up and limped off. I never saw a drop of blood when I went to look. I waited another 3-4 hours to pick up the trail, hoping he might expire in that time frame. There was no blood to be found. I can only assume I hit him in the leg and it wasn't a lethal shot. All that being said, I am looking for a bullet that will completely pass through, leaving me with the best possible blood trail. I liked the 300gr bonded Furys, but accuracy fell apart somewhere between 100 and 200yrds. At 200 yards there was no grouping at all. My rifle builder recommended I switch to the 300gr NSR bullets, which I did and they have been excellent in regard to accuracy, but inconsistent upon impact. I am shooting this bullet using 78grns of H322 out of a 26" Brux barrel with a 1:20 twist. I have also tried IMR 4198 with decent results, but the H322 worked best with both Arrowheads and Furys. I thought about trying a wad above the powder, in conjunction with the Furys but don't want to add that step due to time loss reloading in the field. Thoughts????
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Bullet performance on game - for everything from sidelock through modern rifle - is an interesting topic, for just the reasons that you mention. What we are all looking for is a bullet that will create a big wound channel AND punch all the way through with a big exit wound for good blood trails, regardless of range/muzzle velocity. Not an easy combination to achieve, for sure, especially at long ranges: The big wound channel requires either big bore, flat nosed bullets, or bullets that expand rapidly at all impact velocities, while punching all the way through requires bullets that maintain their shape and weight. Big bore flat nosed bullets can achieve both penetration and big wound channels if they're made of hard enough material, but they generally have rainbow trajectories, and therefore aren't too useful at long ranges. Small diameter, high velocity bullets that expand rapidly at all ranges generally don't maintain their shapes and weights, so penetration can be marginal, although kills can be spectacularly quick. Small diameter bullets that maintain their shape at all impact velocities tend to punch small holes, kill slowly, and leave poor blood trails.

Based on the experience below, IMHO, the best alternative for a high velocity modern rifle or a high velocity smokeless ML is the good ol' Nosler Partition, or a Swift A-Frame: The front part is fairly soft lead and thin copper, so it expands well at all impact velocities, while the rear section is encased in copper, and punches all the way through across a wide range of impact velocities. Bonded core bullets and solid copper bullets seem to have potential for accomplishing the same thing as a partition design, but I have limited experience with bonded cores (see below), and that experience hasn't been impressive. I have no experience with solid copper.

Most of the deer I've shot with a modern rifle have been with a .257 Roberts shooting thin-jacketed 117 grain Sierra Game King boattails that started out at around 2900 fps. Ranges varied from 200 to 400 yards, and all dropped stone dead within about 10 yards, with MASSIVE internal wounds. BUT, all were also hit exactly right, and on a couple of these deer the bullets went completely to pieces inside the deer, so I have concerns about what would have happened if a deer wasn't hit just right, or if ranges had been shorter/impact velocities higher, or if I'd been shooting bigger animals - elk or black bears. I don't have a lot of experience with bonded core bullets, but I've shot one deer and one elk with 165 grain Nosler Accubond bullets fired at 2800 fps from my .308 Win. Can't say that I'm terribly impressed: The deer was about 80 yards away, and was hit perfectly with the first shot, but took so long to go down that I fired a second shot, which was also a perfect hit. Both bullets punched all the way through and the deer was bleeding profusely, but not much expansion, and small wound channels. The big cow elk was hit three times at about 200 yards, all through the chest cavity, and NONE of the Nosler Accubond bullets punched all the way through OR created a big wound channel. She ran about 80 yards after the first two hits, stood behind a small clump of trees for a few minutes, ran about 80 yards back to almost where she was when the first bullet hit, and finally went down, but it took a third bullet to the chest to drop her head after she was down. NO blood trail whatsoever - and there was snow on the ground so blood would have been easy to see, and I couldn't see either entrance or exit wounds on the downed elk. If I'd been in heavy timber, there's an excellent chance that I would have lost her. In fact, most of the deer and elk I've killed with arrows have died quicker and left FAR better blood trails than the two that I killed with the Nosler Accubonds. These experiences are why I've concluded that partition bullets - Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame - are the best alternatives for high velocity weapons. I notice that Nosler has dropped the 165 grain Accubond bullet from their .308 Win "Trophy Grade" ammo, and replaced it with their partition bullet..... so I'm guessing that others have had performance issues with the Accubonds too. I have no experience with solid copper bullets, but maybe thay can be designed in a way that mimics the performance of partition bullets: Good expansion up front, with a shank that holds together and punches all the way through.

IMHO the best alternatives for slower velocity, big bore rifles (.45-70 and other big bore modern rifles, black powder MLs, etc) are 1) Swift's lever action A-Frame, which is a partition bullet designed for lever gun velocities, and 2) Heavy, flat-nosed full-bore bullets that are hard enough to retain their basic shape and punch all the way through, but create lots of shock and a big wound channel due to their big diameter and flat nose: With a big diameter, flat-nosed bullet, you don't need to rely on bullet expansion for shock and big wound channels, so you can go with harder material and get the penetration needed for a big blood trail.

Because most of my rifle hunting has been done in the very open semi-deserts of Eastern WA and Eastern OR where long shots are the rule, I haven't used big-bore rifles much, and my thinking about the best alternatives for big bore rifles is based mostly on what I've read about the experiences of others. However, I've shot two deer with a .50 ML at fairly long ranges in Eastern WA - one with a pure lead round ball and one with a TC "Cheap Shot" 240 grain soft lead hollow point. Excellent bullet performance and massive wound channels in both cases, despite low impact velocities.

Most of the deer and elk hunting here in west-central Montana seems to be in the timber, so I will probably start using either my Henry .45-70 or my .50 Renegade during the general season: In the timber, range limitations aren't much of a handicap. the Henry is wonderfull to carry and handle, and I love shooting and hunting with the Renegade. I have to use the Renegade during MT's Heritage Muzzleloader season, during which full-bore lead bullets are required. For the .45-70, I plan to try the 350 grain Swift A-Frames loaded to about 1800 fps, and now that I've decided to get into bullet casting, I'd like to develop a flat-nose, hard-cast and gas-checked lead bullet load too. For the Renegade, I've been working on good loads for the Hornady Great Plains bullet, and plan to begin exploring various bullets that I cast myself. Accurate Molds has some good-looking 350 grain designs, IdahoLewis' 415 grain I bullet looks great, and Bronko is sending me some heavier bullets to try as well. LOTS of fun!!

Happy New Year, everybody!!
 
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I fully agree WP79Vet, on the above.

I remember back when the Winchester Partition Gold saboted rounds came out for shotguns that used a 385 grain jacketed bullet. Something like 1900 fps. I had a huge doe come past me one morning at about 20 yards and got a direct shoulder hit and the whole shoulder blew off the deer and she did about a quarter mile of 3 legged flopping before I could get another hit on her to finish it. The bullet never so much as scarred the rib cage. Deer at 75 to 100 yards or further would drop almost on the spot with exits about 3" in diameter.
 
Savagehead said:
You had Barnes originals 300 grn grenade on you? I find that hard to believe...I have literally shot 100s of them with 60 grn of N120 and only ever recovered one as they always passed through....how fast are you pushing them? It just blows my mind as to what speed it took to have a 300 BO blow up..
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I wouldn't tell you that they did if they didn't. As I said, it happened to me twice (once shooting 150grns of 777 out of my Remington Ultimate at about 70yrds). The other time it happened was with my Savage ML II, using 57grns of N120 (probably around 50yrds). Both were shoulder shots. I guess I should specify that they were Barnes Original "Spitzers" instead of just Barnes Originals, but I doubt that makes any difference.
 

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