What the cheddite is going on here

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

Well today I was shooting both my tk2000 and knight american I stopped after the first two shots out of both because of this. Can anyone explain what the problem is here I checked the breech plugs and they were clear and clean. Never had this happen with the cci m primers

 

[MrTom]

What kind of powder and what are the charges? Just off hand I'd guess that whatever you're shooting is too hot.

I've shot my Patriot with smokeless using Cheddite primers and they never looked like these, but then too the Ptriot doesn't require those micky mouse primer holders. Maybe invest in a conversion plug to eliminate needing those things.

 

[ElDiablo]

You’re blowing the primer cups. Appears to be too much pressure.

Maybe try doublechecking and cleaning (drilling) out the flash channel? You may have carbon build up there that is over-pressuring the primers.

If the channel is clean try a different brand of 209 and see if you get the same result.

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

I can use cci or t7 primers and they don't look like these at all. I'm shooting 80 grains of triple7 2fg in both guns

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Have you used those primers before in the FPJ primer holder?

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

No I've only used t7 or cci. This is my first experience with cheddite primers. Like I said I don't have this problem with those primers

 

[Ka'imiloa]

What kind of powder and what are the charges? Just off hand I'd guess that whatever you're shooting is too hot.

I've shot my Patriot with smokeless using Cheddite primers and they never looked like these, but then too the Ptriot doesn't require those micky mouse primer holders. Maybe invest in a conversion plug to eliminate needing those things.

This is a real head-scratcher! Assuming you are shooting Blackhorn 209, it needs a "hot" primer like CCI magnum to properly ignite (Unless you have a specific "Blackhorn 209" shorter breechplug as sold for the CVA Wolf rifle, then regular 209 shotgun primers will work. Never use "ML" primers like those for Triple 7 and Pyrodex. They are too weak.)

If your BH 209 powder does not ignite well, it is going to produce less and variable pressure, not more, resulting in poor accuracy or even "all over the place" accuracy. Like El Diablo says, the small-diameter portion of the breech plug is critical and can easily get carboned up. To manage that, you need tiny drills about .032" diameter, used by hand in a tiny chuck, never by power, to carefully clean out that very narrow portion of the breech plug. The gun manufacturer can tell you what the small diameter is, and you don't want to ever enlarge it, nor do you want to get an easily broken tiny drill stuck in there (ask me how I know!!)

Your photos show what appears to be two things: badly leaking primers as from improper support at firing, and also back-out of the cap portion of the primer. I can't imagine how the latter thing could happen unless your breech is bad and there is waaaaay to much headspace between back of primer and breech face of gun at moment of firing.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

I don't use buckhorn 209 to expensive for this hillbilly. Like I've said I've never had this problem before. And i keep the breech plugs cleaned and have made sure there ain't no carbon build up. I don't think a cva nipple will fit my knight

 

[brad502a]

The only thing I have heard about Cheddite primers is that they are shorter than CCI/Federal, definitely not hotter.

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

If they are shorter do you think that possibly they are not long enuff to get to the nipple that way the pressure and fire from the primer is not fully going down the opening in the nipple and is causing a pressure spike right before entering the nipple

 

[brad502a]

Possible but the length difference is only aboutn .005". I pasted a chart I got off Google, hope it helps

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

Ill have to find my calibers for sure on this one

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

I don't think that's the problem either. Unless I got a bad batch of plastic jackets and they are the cause some how. I do know they are a harder than my older plastic jackets I'll have to pull some primers out of the old ones and try these cheddite primers in them. I'll post pics of those also

 

[Ka'imiloa]

I don't use buckhorn 209 to expensive for this hillbilly. Like I've said I've never had this problem before. And i keep the breech plugs cleaned and have made sure there ain't no carbon build up. I don't think a cva nipple will fit my knight

Just a thought, with respect, for you and numerous other shooters of modern muzzleloaders. The manufacturers have found that Prodex and Triple 7, so commonly used, produce a lot of carbon buildup. Hence they began promoting the "muzzleloader" primers. As said above, in reality these ML primers are not only far from "magnum"strength but have less brissance (firing power) than regular 209 shotgun primers. That

That reduced primer brissance helps reduce the Pyrodex/Triple7 carbon buildup. The manufactures further found that the tiny-passage (orifice) portion of the breech plug functions best at igniting ML powders, especially Blackhorn 209, if that orifice is a specific size and remains so. So if that orifice should be .032" or thereabouts you can't tell by holding up the breechplug to a light, unless it is badly fouled. The only way to tell is by gently running a tiny, proper-sized drill thru there, by hand, or else pushing thru a piece of machinists "drill rod" that is that diameter.

To put this in perspective, such a .032" diameter hole is the size of the thickness of ten pieces of ordinary paper, pressed tightly together, or the shank of a medium-sized sewing needle.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

I don't remember mentioning anywhere in my post that I use buckhorn 209. I've stated that my breech plugs are clean even the fire hole in them. Could the plastic jackets that I just got be causing this because they seem to be a harder plastic than the originals I have

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

Ok so after much calling and questions I've found out that the primers I got were not cheddite but noble primers. I have shot them in my knight american and I have no idea with them the tk2000 is a whole different can of worms the problem seems to be worse now than before. From left to right first to are the noble primers a cci m primers and a Winchester t7 primer. The only thing I can figure is the original breech plugs for the tk2000 is not big enuff for the fire to properly travel down the fire hole. That being said the breech plugs in the american came with a conversion kit and seems to have a bigger hole in it. So I've decided to order a replacement plug from knight and see if that helps versus drilling the original out a little bigger. Any advice for this being the correct answer

 

[Ka'imiloa]

I'd strongly recommend doing more homework and especially calling and talking to a tech at Knight, because they have probably seen this problem before. The tiny "firing hole" in a breech plug has critical dimension and "drilling it out would mean using only a wee big bigger hole. Unless you have a set of tiny and easily broken machinist's drills, a sophisticated spindle to hold that drill, as well as secure means to hold your breech plug precisely, you are playing with fire, so to speak, toward an excessively large hole that will not only provide less reliable and irregular firing, but also allow even more blow-back at firing. Or you may break the drill off in the tiny hole, and your breech plug is useless. Also, these plugs are often made of hard alloy steel to lessen firing corrosion.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

Well I've studied on it considerably and that's the only solution I can come up with. Ill probably call knight first and go from there. I forgot to add that the guns weren't loaded only snapping caps. I would hate to experience that with powder loaded

 

[hornclayton]

Well today I was shooting both my tk2000 and knight american I stopped after the first two shots out of both because of this. Can anyone explain what the problem is here I checked the breech plugs and they were clear and clean. Never had this happen with the cci m primersView attachment 34545

Cheddites will lead to blow by occaisionally on my knight peregrine 40. They appear to be inconsistemt on size or something leading to big fps devitions but the winchester 777s never do.