Newby here, hoping someone can help me.

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ElDiablo said:
Well that could be part of your problem. Those are lower-powered “muzzy” primers. Made for 777 not Bh209. They may work under ideal conditions but not recommended for optimum performance.
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Ok so what are the best primers avaliable?

I genuinely appreciate all this help.
 
lvanlanen said:
Breech is super easy to take out in this gun.... bullet goes in like butter super easy. I did what you said. Lots of light coming through. Looks like along the rifling of the barrel it is not sealed. So with that said... should I look at another bullet?
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Sounds like everybody is in agreement - lots of opportunity for condensation, or just moisture from humid air, to get to your powder with that bullet. So there are three things I can recommend, and others may have more/better ideas:

1. Never a good idea to move any rifle repeatedly from cold (40F or colder) to warm. Condensed moisture will get into everything and cause rust, firing mechanism malfunctions, powder malfunctions, etc. If you're hunting multiple days in cold weather, always either leave your rifle in a cold place between hunting sessions, or clean it very thoroughly (right down to disassembling the firing mechanism) between hunting sessions. If you're hunting in freezing weather, condensed moisture can get into the safety, trigger, sear, firing pin, etc and then freeze when you go back out, causing complete malfunctions.

2. You can stick with the ELD-X bullets, but I'd recommend sealing the muzzle after loading for your hunt. Two ways to do that are a) putting a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle, taking care to press down on the electrical tape all the way around the crown of the the muzzle to seal it; and b) Traditions makes a "raingear" kit which has some small black rubber condoms that go over the muzzle. A party ballon will work well for this too.

3. You could change to a bullet that seals the bore tightly - either a tight sabot, or a tight full-bore bullet. If the ELD-X bullets slide down the barrel super easy, I'd be tempted to change bullets for hunting, because part of your problem could be that the bullet slid up the bore a ways while you were hunting, which will DEFINITELY change the way your powder burns. With black powder or substitutes like Pyrodex or T7, a bullet which has moved off the powder can be dangerous.
 
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WP79Vet said:
Sounds like everybody is in agreement - lots of opportunity for condensation, or just moisture from humid air, to get to your powder with that bullet. So there are three things I can recommend, and others may have more/better ideas:

1. Never a good idea to move any rifle repeatedly from cold (40F or colder) to warm. Condensed moisture will get into everything and cause rust, firing mechanism malfunctions, powder malfunctions, etc. If you're hunting multiple days in cold weather, leave your rifle in a cold place between hunting sessions.

2. You can stick with the ELD-X bullets, but I'd recommend sealing the muzzle after loading for your hunt. Two ways to do that are a) putting a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle, taking care to press down on the electrical tape all the way around the crown of the the muzzle to seal it; and b) Traditions makes a "raingear" kit which has some small black rubber condoms that go over the muzzle. A party ballon will work well for this too.

3. You could change to a bullet that seals the bore tightly - either a tight sabot, or a tight full-bore bullet.
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As far as accuracy out at 150-200 yards... is there a difference between tight sabot and full bore?
 
lvanlanen said:
Ok so what are the best primers avaliable?
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Recommended primers for Bh209 are Federal 209A and CCI 209M (both magnum primers).

IMG_3602.png

Do you think it would be smart to move away from the ELD-X due to the loose fit?

Perhaps. You can’t go wrong with a 250-300 gr bullet in a sabot. It would certainly seal the bore much more reliably. I think this would benefit you, especially in really cold weather.

Sounds to me like a loose bullet, non-mag primers and perhaps a dirty breech plug are the main issues.
 
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lvanlanen said:
As far as accuracy out at 150-200 yards... is there a difference between tight sabot and full bore?
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Very difficult to say, because every rifle - whether sidelock, modern ML, or modern centerfire - is different, and every rifle has bullet/powder combinations that it likes, and combinations that it doesn't like. For reasons that are hard to understand, often two identical rifles will have different preferences. Part of the fun is getting your particular rifle figured out.

Having said that, most rifles seem to tune up more easily with sabots, while full-bore bullets tend to be a bit finicky because you have to get the fit between bullet and bore exactly right. Others on this site have much more experience with modern muzzle-loaders than I do, so I will defer to their recommendations.
 
lvanlanen said:
As far as accuracy out at 150-200 yards... is there a difference between tight sabot and full bore?
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After posting the message to which you replied (above), I did some editing and added more thoughts. Please have a look at the edited message.

I agree with all of everybody else's suggestions.

Best of Luck getting it sorted out!
 
Ivan another thing I do when bringing a loaded gun into warm shed after being out all day is to lean it with the barrel down. I made a simple coat hook and hang it by the sling. ( loaded but not primed)
When properly cleaned I also store it barrel down in the gun safe.
 
Ivan....lots of areas will not have many places to find the Federal or CCI or Winchester full power shotshell primers, but the Cheddite primers that are coming in vogue are reliable. I used them during last fall's deer season and everything went boom from BH209 to smokeless powder.

As ElDiablo alluded to, bullets and sabots will likely seal up much better than the bullet with the skirting plastic/cup attached. As to whether a saboted bullet of full bore bullet is better out to 200, I'd say that depends on the gun. Typically I think the Optima V2's have more consistent barrels than the higher priced guns in the CVA lineup so if you can slug the barrel to get a decent reading with a mike you may be better off without the sabot, just understand that the bullets may require a wad between it and the powder which, in the field, may create an issue in getting second shots off in a timely fashion: more pieces and parts to deal with in less than favorable conditions. Inside of 200 yards I prefer a bullet/sabot. Accuracy-wise between the two at 200, about the same with a hunting load. As far as keeping the weather elements out of the powder, the sabot will reign supreme.

You gotten a lot of information here to consider. Being at the tail end of the seasons, now would be a great time to start hitting the range and trying the various ways to load and to try different powders and bullets/sabots as well as charge levels. Call it play time, but take notes so when you look at all the shooting you can go back to the load you're most happy with. I know you are using BH209, but I'd really suggest you pick up a jug each of T7 ffg and fffg to save you some jingle. I shoot T7 fffg at the range at the same identical charge weights as my BH209 instead of burning up my BH that gets used when hunting due to its more favorable tolerance to the elements.
 
MrTom said:
Ivan....lots of areas will not have many places to find the Federal or CCI or Winchester full power shotshell primers, but the Cheddite primers that are coming in vogue are reliable. I used them during last fall's deer season and everything went boom from BH209 to smokeless powder.

As ElDiablo alluded to, bullets and sabots will likely seal up much better than the bullet with the skirting plastic/cup attached. As to whether a saboted bullet of full bore bullet is better out to 200, I'd say that depends on the gun. Typically I think the Optima V2's have more consistent barrels than the higher priced guns in the CVA lineup so if you can slug the barrel to get a decent reading with a mike you may be better off without the sabot, just understand that the bullets may require a wad between it and the powder which, in the field, may create an issue in getting second shots off in a timely fashion: more pieces and parts to deal with in less than favorable conditions. Inside of 200 yards I prefer a bullet/sabot. Accuracy-wise between the two at 200, about the same with a hunting load. As far as keeping the weather elements out of the powder, the sabot will reign supreme.

You gotten a lot of information here to consider. Being at the tail end of the seasons, now would be a great time to start hitting the range and trying the various ways to load and to try different powders and bullets/sabots as well as charge levels. Call it play time, but take notes so when you look at all the shooting you can go back to the load you're most happy with. I know you are using BH209, but I'd really suggest you pick up a jug each of T7 ffg and fffg to save you some jingle. I shoot T7 fffg at the range at the same identical charge weights as my BH209 instead of burning up my BH that gets used when hunting due to its more favorable tolerance to the elements.
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Yeah exactly why I got on here made an account and started listening to people who know more than me, because I'm about to do a lot of shooting. I can shoot out my back door so it makes it easy. I'm used to keeping a journal with my shot information. I'm always documenting cold barrel shots since that's the most important one. I'm going to look at buying a tighter fitting sabot bullet.... now I just need to decide what I want to try.
 
lvanlanen said:
I did buy and use that breech plug. I think I'm going to change my bullet. Any suggestions?
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I like the Orange sabots from MMP, which are made for .458 diameter bullets.
I use them with the Hornady .458 diameter 250 grain, or 300 grain, or 325 grain bullets.

They fit really tight, so it will be harder to get them loaded. Get a good ramrod, or it may bend if you are not careful. Also, get a good longer bullet starter with the T-handle. The MMP sabots seem to be made of a plastic that is a little bit "stickier" to the bore, based on my experience.
 
lvanlanen said:
Yeah exactly why I got on here made an account and started listening to people who know more than me, because I'm about to do a lot of shooting. I can shoot out my back door so it makes it easy. I'm used to keeping a journal with my shot information. I'm always documenting cold barrel shots since that's the most important one. I'm going to look at buying a tighter fitting sabot bullet.... now I just need to decide what I want to try.
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You're on the positive track. Just keep an open mind to the fact that guns are different as well as all of the components, so what shoots lights out in one person's gun may not do well in yours.

I would add that if you are a detail oriented person, buy a decent scale and take time to weigh out those BH and T7 powder charges. The blacks and other subs, forget weighing. For the most part a grain either way of BH or T7 isn't going to matter however volume measures vary as much as there are measures, even within the same brand, same measure AND how the measures are leveled with powder in them varies person to person. Because of those variables, powder charges maybe 3 or four grains either way and that can make a significant difference with both T7 and BH. I weigh both powders religiously.

And has been mentioned, keeping that flame channel immediately behind the primer's face every 15-20 shots will go a super long way towards excellent accuracy. Myself, I shoot the BH immediately prior to the season on a primer fouled barrel and a clean flame channel so I know exactly where that first shot will go, then I go home and clean the gun and plug and prime foul before loading to hunt. Little things. I thnk you'll find they mean a lot.

Good shooting now!
 
Looks like you got the answers to your dilemma great advise on T7, ffg or fffg for range or plinking use hell of a lot cheaper then BH. Ive found my CVA's and Knights shoot the same using 100 gr by Vol. BH 209 or 100 gr by vol. T7 fffg ,Shooting 300 gr Speer Gold Dots and a Harvester black crush rib sabot . And remember like has been said every gun is different and may not shoot as well as another with the same combo. Just as a side note I find the fffg to have a little less of a crud ring build up the ffg .Have fun experimenting.
 
lvanlanen said:
I am brand new to muzzleloading. The gun I bought is a CVA optima V2. With it I also bought federal 209 primers, blackhorn 209 powder, hornady ELD-X 350Grain bullets, blackhorn 209 breech plug, and I put a vortex scope on it.

I am measuring out my powder 100grains by volume.

First time out with the gun I sighted it in with no issues. The gun was very responsive to my scope adjustments.

Second time out... first shot was 3inches high. Second shot was perfect. It shot great groups after that.

First shot was off but I chalked it up to either me being a novice at muzzleloading or maybe cold barrel is going to act different than a pre shot barrel. Either way it was on enough to go hunt and sit my bow stands where max shot would be 30 40 yards.

I loaded my gun day 1 of muzzle season. I hunted 6 days. Never saw a shooter. After season was done I decided to shoot and see if it was high again on the first shot...

Well I shot and the gun was low by 3 feet. Hardly felt any recoil. Almost as if the powder didn't really have any energy.

This has me freaked out... what if that was the day prior and I had shot at a big buck. I have no clue what the issue is and why that would've happened. Possibly condensation from the gun going inside to outside multiple times? I am hoping someone on here can give me a lesson on how to never have this happen again.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Hope someone can help me.
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It sounds like bullet wasn't tight on the powder them bullets don't hold tight the little skirt on the back is the only thing holding the rifling and if the temp was cold it will cause shrinkage. If you want to shoot full bore I would try Thor bullets, if you go that route order the sizing pack from them and then try them. I'm sure people will chime in and offer some suggestions for you to try this is a good place for help. Blackhorn needs the bullet seated very firm it needs compression tamped down with your hand.
 
I have seen this more than one time with the muzzleloading primers. They will ignite the powder in warmer weather and even when it starts getting cooler, when most of us start playing around with our stuff getting ready for hunting season. When the temps get down under 40 or so those primers don't ignite Blackhorn worth a damn. Get yourself some Federal 209A or CCI Mag primers and your problems will be gone.
I would also get a bullet that uses a sabot. I like the .45 caliber Hornady XTP with the MMP sabots for anything at 100 yards or less. Just remember, when it's tight it's right.
I also have a witness mark on my ramrod to make sure the load is seated all the way against the breechplug. If you are leaving the gun loaded for an extended time without firing it, you could check to make sure the bullet stays put by running the ramrod down the bore and checking the witness mark. With a loose-fitting bullet it doesn't take much for the bullet to move off the powder charge.
 

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