Direct Ignition

[ronlaughlin]

Scott is/was quite interested in seeing how Blackhorn works with direct ignition. Achieving direct ignition is trivially easy to do if one has a breech plug with a vent liner; alls one need do is remove the vent liner, and use the plug without. The first time i tried this was in 2012. Back then i used a shotgun primer, and it didn't work so good. The primer leaked soot between the anvil, and cup; the primer required a leatherman tool to remove it from the breech plug. This morning a Fedral 215 primer was used.

This morning a pr adapter was used in a modified QRBP. The adapter allowed the Federal 215 magnum rifle primers to be used.

An o-ring was was used in the primer socket to keep blow by around the nose of the adapter from happening. The first three shots beginning with a clean cold barrel were made with the vent liner in place.

Then the vent liner was removed.

Without the vent liner in place the powder nestles right up tight to the primer adapter, and it is as though one is using a cartridge filled with powder. Three shots were made on the target using 'direct ignition'. The adapters came right out of the breech plug using fingers.

Then a chronograph was set up in shade, and bullet speed was measured about 15' from the rifle. The load was 65 (weighed) grain Blackhorn, 265g 44 caliber FP interlock, smooth green Harvester sabot, Federal 215 primer. Rifle was an Optima with a 4X scope mounted.

First shots clocked were with the vent liner reinstalled in the breech plug.



1736 fps
1724
1736

1732 fps = average with vent liner



Next five shots made without a vent liner; powder right up tight to the primer.



1823 fps
1782
1836
1801
1841

1816 fps = average



The last photo shows the primers/adapters after. The primers to the right of the vent liner, fired with the vent liner in place.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Good report :yeah: I've been reading about direct ignition on some other boards. In certain rifles, it looks like a good way to go.

 

[WV Hunter]

Good info Ron. Fairly substantial increase in fps.

I have always wondered about why there is a vent liner in the bp, and what that design was meant to do. I mean with #11 caps, the powder goes right up to the flame. I guess I always just assumed it was a safety issue.

 

[ronlaughlin]

The flash hole, and the flame channel work together to reduce the pressure on the primer. The pressure without them working in tandem is too much for shotgun primers. Shotgun primers don't work well for direct ignition.

 

[WV Hunter]

Makes sense. Thanks for the info.
You gonna keep shooting that rifle that way?

 

[bestill]

The flash hole, and the flame channel work together to reduce the pressure on the primer. The pressure without them working in tandem is too much for shotgun primers. Shotgun primers don't work well for direct ignition.

Also 700ml , savage ml and omega cant handle direct charge pressure due to design.
Such as bolt retaining pin.
Flash hole and flame channel reduce pressure on primer and action.

Direct ignition is being utilized on smokeless builds but exclusively on locking lug actions and break action sml builds.

Use caution with direct ignition

 

[Confederate rifleman]

No liner to keep powder in place... Is it just me, or is ramming a primed muzzleloader ( regardless of action status) really a safe idea?

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I would load on a dummy/spent primer, then switch it for a live primer with the muzzle pointed down so no powder falls out. From the video I watched, it seems to work quite well this way.

 

[bestill]

I would load on a dummy/spent primer, then switch it for a live primer with the muzzle pointed down so no powder falls out. From the video I watched, it seems to work quite well this way.

Exactly way to do it!

 

[ronlaughlin]

No liner to keep powder in place... Is it just me, or is ramming a primed muzzleloader ( regardless of action status) really a safe idea?

Me, i won't load a muzzle loader with a live primer in place; fired primer in place when loading, is how i did it. One also needs to be careful when removing the dead primer; sometimes the powder wants to follow along.

 

[ronlaughlin]

..... You gonna keep shooting that rifle that way?

No. My questions are answered. Maybe a couple more times is all. The cushion the flash hole, and flame channel provide is a good thing.

 

[SCHUNTER]

Excellent info in this thread. Thanks for the test Ron. I was wondering if blackhorn speed would also increase with direct ignition.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Made it out again this morning, and did some more shooting. The load was 70 (weighed) grain Blackhorn, 275g BE, short black Harvester sabot, Federal 215 primer.

Earlier this week i had modified an Omega breech plug to use the pr adapters This Omega breech plug does not use a vent liner; it has the flame channel, and flash hole in place; not direct ignition. The Omega rifle came with, so he was given a chance to shoot the target using rifle primers. Load was 60 (weighed) grain Blackhorn, 265g 44 caliber FP interlock, green crush rib sabot, Federal 215 primer. Range was 100 yard.

....Use caution with direct ignition

 

[52Bore]

Unless I'm missing something, with the vent removed there is a large hole (about 0.190") in the breech plug and the 'module with primer' is not threaded - doesn't this mean that all the rearward pressure is against your action face upon firing?

 

[bestill]

Unless I'm missing something, with the vent removed there is a large hole (about 0.190") in the breech plug and the 'module with primer' is not threaded - doesn't this mean that all the rearward pressure is against your action face upon firing?

You are dead on.
And i guess if used on only a locking lug bolt action designed for centerfire cartridges or a cva apex or tc encore in theory would be safe but doing this on a muzzleloader not designed for these head pressures is extremely dangerous.

There are several smokeless custom builds with proper actions for high head pressures using direct ignitions that are done rite.

You take a 5/16x24 3/4 long thread grade 9 12pt bolt and drill thru with .093 drill then machine large rifle primer pocket.
This way module is safely secured in breech plug but primer itself still put immediate chamber pressure on bolt or action. This is very action specific ignition.
Be safe

 

[Travis299]

Please help out a dummy to understand this Direct Ignition. Am I understanding that you are trying to reduce the space and increase the hole size for the fire channel/fire hole so that the primer hot gas, when fired, is as close to the powder charge as possible. I thought that a small fire hole was so that most all of the pressure generated when the powder charge goes off is directed toward the bullet and out the muzzle. It seems to me that you DO NOT want any large amount of gas pressure back toward the primer face which I believe would be dangerous. Thanks and I appreciate any explanation for this as I must be missing something.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Well, i would say you are exactly correct.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

From what I've read, direct ignition is a way to get as close as possible to an actual cartridge where the powder in the case is right next to the primer. Benefits are no flash hole, vent liner, bushing, etc. to wear out. No duplex loads necessary for harder to ignite powders. Better cold weather ignition. Much of this pertains to smokeless muzzleloaders, more so than black powder rifles.