Open letter to CVA Paramount and MRX 1-22 twist rifles

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I would not tollerate a bore being that far out of spec. They would be giving me my money back.
Yeah...well I bought mine second hand from someone I trusted to know the difference between crap and not. CVA screwed him and he screwed me. CVA doesn't even know my name nor do they care to. Which is why I flame them every chance I get. They know/knew exactly what they were doing and I hope the burn for it economically.
 
power belt ELR's for $2 a shot or Copper plated for as low as 21 cents per shot? Seems like the paramount bore size in extremely difficult to match up with the inexpensive bullets. Is this just a coincidence?
 
If Knight ,Arrowhead, hankins ,Patriot ,Fisk any of the other prominent builders , rice barrels, all the traditional barrel makers, and the traditional rifle builders got together and formed established bore dimensions maybe that institute and that stamp of approval would put pressure on a lot of those producing out of spec barrels.
I'm here to tell ya , Rice is standard .458 groove and 450 bore
 
power belt ELR's for $2 a shot or Copper plated for as low as 21 cents per shot? Seems like the paramount bore size in extremely difficult to match up with the inexpensive bullets. Is this just a coincidence?
Absolutely no coincidence. A ploy to enslave a rifle owner to the parent company's bullets for inflated profits. And that they did it in such an underhanded way it what has guys like me so pissed off at them. And then add to it that the overpriced ELRs are junk just makes it that much worse. They may shoot well but terminally they leave a great deal to be desired.
 
Dear CVA as a fan of your muzzleloaders I regret to write what I'm about to write, however if someone gets hurt because of others not speaking up I sure would not feel right about that. I've been a big fan of the Acura 50 cal 1 and 28 twist five different rifles I shot each for a year and then I gave them away to help others learn .I was excited about the Paramount 45 Cal I brought one of the first ones to come out shot it a lot,, ended up just putting it in the closet because of the bore dimension's
CVA chose from the beginning to make their 45 bore fit their bullet,, I suppose in a business conceptual sense that seem smart,, I do not think they thought through that concept thoroughly . What will happen when an inexperienced shooter chooses to try a different bullet than the factory recommended bullet,, can an inexperienced shooter rely on the bullet to stay seated firmly on the powder column? And what about some of the paramounts that have such loose bores that even their factory recommended bullet is risky about staying seated? I just purchased a MRX Acura 45 Cal 1 and 22 twist the only bullets I can safely seat in this rifle is the factory 280 eld all other bore riding bullets and even 40 cal bullets in a Sabot are too loose in this rifle. I know I guess many will say send the rifle back the problem is I'm convinced that this problem is not just in the rifle that I brought every Paramount shooter that I've talked to the last couple of years has the same issue an oversized bore I'm convinced all of the Acura 45 Cal rifles that are currently being sold here in America have the same bore dimensions or similar, again if you're only going to shoot their bullet I guess everything might be fine but it seems like there's some issues even with their bullets. The Paramount has enough barrel shank and a strong enough barrel that maybe somebody could get away with the bullet falling off the powder column and still firing the gun, the Acura with the thinner barrel worries me I'm afraid someone is going to lose a hand or an arm.
Again to those at CVA if you change your bore dimensions back to an American 45 cal guess what your bullets will still work in the rifle you can still sell your bullets!!!
I will say this to all of you considering buying one of their 45 Cal 22 twist I would really think hard you're going to be very limited to what you can shoot in that rifle ,,will they shoot the 280-285 elds accurately I believe most of the rifles that you buy will ,,are you going to be able to shoot another bullet in it safely I do not think so and I sure am worried that someone inexperienced buying that rifle is going to be missing a hand. Just my personal opinion but I would not buy that rifle unless you are a very experienced muzzleloader shooter, to those that are I don't think you'll have any problems,it's the inexperience person trying a rifle out new that I'm concerned about.
I'm pleased to find this forum and as a newbie here I'll simply say that in the past I did a whale of a lot of posting at several ML forums.
So allow me to politely jump in with both feet here. Contrary to common knowledge, having space between powder and bullet is not an "obstruction" situation, and instead creates, via internal-ballistics principles, a larger powder-volume space. That means lower, not higher pressure is created by the ignition of the powder. There is, very rarely, an issue of "detonation", a poorly understood phenomenon in smokeless powder rifle loads wherein the primer flash might travel over the surface of a "leveled-out" powder load and thus ignite it far too fast, creating a highly excessive pressure peak. But note that is smokeless powder, and very rare.
So, using BP in caplock or flintlock MLs, or in an inline rifle, or Pyrodex, Triple7 or Blackhorn 209, will mean poor pressure buildup if the bullet migrates forward of the powder charge. And with the marvelous pressure capabilties of BH 209, its tendency is to ignite poorly if there is diminished restriction to its burning, such as a loose bullet, oversized bore, too-small sabot, etc. That means lower, not higher, pressure. Additionally, for what it's worth, BH 209 has a virtual duplicate of BP's pressure curve, meaning it is a very quick peak followed by rapid pressure drop-off. It also means that BH 209 is more likely to produce bullet oburation and hence fill the rifling grooves, than the other BP substitutes do, and gives it the remarkably low ES (extreme spread of velocity) in any given string of shots (provided that the bullet is tight in the bore via its initial diameter, sabot, skirt diameter, or bullet obturation at ignition).
In the later 1840s, there were some european MLs with typical soft iron barrels that had an iron post projecting forward from the breechplug (Delvigny style), intentionally creating a space between powder charge and bullet!
As far as undersized bullets, the ML ones that look jacketed are instead soft lead that has a thin copper coating to lessen fouling and look nice (read, cost an excessive amount). They are designed to obturate upon ignition of the powder (yes, that happens before the bullet even starts to move, which was proven by Dr. Franklin Mann in his 1902 book).
In closing, blown up barrels are virtually always caused by an actual obstruction in the barrel, which a fired bullet or shot charge meets, thus producing an instant pressure spike that may blow up the barrel.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
 
It is like someone tried to convince me one time that a 22 twist in a Mortimer was enough for 1000 yds. at Oak Ridge . Obturation was proven by man in England I believe , the rifle was Gibbs Metford
 
I got 2 Knight 45s (DISC and ULITE) now with as close to .450 lands as i can measure. The Mountaineer is .4507 as close as i can measure. My Pacnor 45 is ever so slightly larger than .450. No more than .4502 because a Parker BE .4505 wont load. Any larger and it would on a clean bore but barely.

Lots of guys mention the McGowens running about .451 but nothing else bad. Brux as far as i know are super close to .450. CVA 45-70s are mostly in the .451 area it seems. So i find it surprising that the CVA 45 ML are so far out of whack. The only thing that makes sense is that it was intentional or the ML production side of the Bergara plant has really went to garbage.
 
maybe just the .45 bergara muzzleloader barrel side ? it's been said a few times in this thread CVAs mrx/lrx in .50 are just fine . but aren't all the CVA muzzleloader barrels made by bergara ? but just the x series and up get the bergara label because of the extra passes ?
 
Its all made and assembled in Bergara Spain at the same plant. Every ML they sell and most of the rifles too. I think they offer some highend CF rifles assembled here with parts they import.
 
It is like someone tried to convince me one time that a 22 twist in a Mortimer was enough for 1000 yds. at Oak Ridge . Obturation was proven by man in England I believe , the rifle was Gibbs Metford
Fun remark, and possibly even made tongue-in-cheek! That someone was probably me, or perhaps someone who had shot with me long range. Yes, the Pedersoli "Mortimer-Whitworth" .45 ML, a modern version of a British Sporting Rifle of the 1860s, has a 1 in 20.7 twist. Call it 1:21. Perhaps a bit off-thread but here's more with apologies:
I wanted to shoot long range to 1000 with my Mortimer rifle and everyone told me there was no way a 1:21 twist would stabilize a long 500 to 550 gr. .45 bullet to 1000 yds. I replied that stabilization is not just based on "twist rate" but instead on twist rate combined with bullet velocity. It's rps (revolutions per second) for the bullet that matters. So....push the bullet faster until its muzzle rps is the same as a 1:18 twist delivers with a typical long range charge of maybe 90 gr. of Swiss 1.5F.
I shot my Mortimer just fine to 1000 yds. at AZ's Ben Avery Range using 107 gr. of 1.5F Swiss powder. If you can put up with the increased recoil, it sure works. (At Oak Ridge it didn't however, thanks to a bubble level broken in air transit, plus some improper bullets.)
I told the U.S. Pedersoli rep that if they would make a Mortimer-like rifle with 1:18 twist, they would sell a lot of them for competition. Nine months later the Pedersoli Gibbs model came out with 1:18 twist and the rest is history.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
It is like someone tried to convince me one time that a 22 twist in a Mortimer was enough for 1000 yds. at Oak Ridge . Obturation was proven by man in England I believe , the rifle was Gibbs Metford
 
Well you haven't changed much, yes i shot with you at Oak Ridge , seems you and Talley really had difference on that. How you been, haven't heard much from you, still shoot pistol? My name is Bob Wetzler
 
Yeah...well I bought mine second hand from someone I trusted to know the difference between crap and not. CVA screwed him and he screwed me. CVA doesn't even know my name nor do they care to. Which is why I flame them every chance I get. They know/knew exactly what they were doing and I hope the burn for it economically.
You might get a 457” cast bullet to shoot very well from your rifle. No Excuses Bullets or Buffalo Arms Company should have suitable bullets In weights from 285-500 grains or so.
 
Bullshop sells all kinds of lead boolits between .451 and .458. Lee sells the cheap sizers in .454 and .457. If .454 is too loose you could polish it out somehow. Did Arrowhead start selling a "CVA" Swinglock die for the oversize bores too?
 
Bullshop sells all kinds of lead boolits between .451 and .458. Lee sells the cheap sizers in .454 and .457. If .454 is too loose you could polish it out somehow. Did Arrowhead start selling a "CVA" Swinglock die for the oversize bores too?
What Arrowhead is selling is Swing Lock dies preset @ .4535. I looked at what Bullshop offers and there are several good possibilities there. I'm going to try some of the Arrowhead 45 cal XLD oversized for Paramounts. Even if they are a bit loose I can knurl them up to fit better.
 
Well you haven't changed much, yes i shot with you at Oak Ridge , seems you and Talley really had difference on that. How you been, haven't heard much from you, still shoot pistol? My name is Bob Wetzler
Hi Bob,
It's always nice to put a face and personality onto a handle at a forum. Good to hear from you, Bob. Yes, still my highly investigational self, and no - not shooting pistols any more. Simply did it all and burnt out on it.
Meanwhile, I have learned over time that ego trumps facts when the latter are presented -- for example the concept of bullet rps as it leaves the muzzle. Larry and others, thinkers at least part of the time, become ego-adamant on certain issues. Barrel twist rate is a fixed item and much easier to consider. Thus, constantly in the shooting discussions.
Some can't even conceptualize that a bullet may be stable at 100 yds and shooting accurately, yet by 200 or 300 yds it has slowed enough and lost just enough rps to become unstable and start hitting willy-nilly on the target. Bullets holes, examined closely, may be ovoid instead of round, and eventually the bullets even start to tumble and strike the target sideways. And curiously, bullets may be particularly accurate shortly before the de-stabilization point begins. That's very complex external ballistics stuff.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
 
found that to be true about stable at 100 but not 200 and beyond. Little bit of everything on this site
 
Run the numbers in a calculator. You have to greatly increase velocity to make even a marginal change in rpm. Then you run into the limitations you might have with some projectiles. You can only push soft lead so fast before something has to give.
 
on the MRX/LRX series is the scope rail a picatinny or weaver spacing ?
 
what is the screw spacing to replace it ?
do you have a budget recommendation ?
do you think it better to go picatinny if replacing it ?
 

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