150 grains of pellets equals how much loose powder ???

[JeffB1961]

looking at CVA's site they say the optima is rated for "..... Your CVA gun utilizes a 209 shotgun shell primer to ignite the powder charge (or musket caps in appropriate markets). It is fully magnum capable*. This means that you can use the “magnum” charge of 150 grains equivalent of pelletized blackpowder substitutes ....." .
https://cva.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Universal-Manualrev11.20.15.pdf
i have 777 fffg powder and some 777 pellets and i'm wondering what volume of 777 fffg powder will equal 150 grains of pellets . i know it won't be 150 grains by weight or volume . i think i read somewhere (i don't recall where) about %80 . soooo 120 grains ??? i have a 2003 model so i don't know if it can handle the same load size as the new models ..... maybe more maybe less ? and FWIU bullet weight plays a factor exp. a heavier bullet creates more pressure for the given powder charge because more weight requires more pressure to get it moving .

i'll be shooting 250-300 grain bullets for deer . i doubt i'd ever want to use the max charge for them ..... but if i want to push the envelope for what my gun can handle or to see how much recoil i can handle i want to know what the optima can safely handle .

also ..... FWIU measuring by volume is fine for hunting/shooting 200 yards and under but going past 200 yards weighing the charge can produce more accuracy ...... is that mostly correct ?

thanks , jeff

 

[MrTom]

Hypothetically the loose T7 is supposed to be an equal replacement for true black but I think people scale back on it some. Personally, I do a 10% reduction when I'm shooting T7 granular. I'm talking T7 ff here. So, if I wanted to do a 150 grain load, I'd be looking at 135 grains by volume. On the pellets, it depends on which pellets you are using. The T7 Magnum pellets are 60 grain equivalent so two is you max load.

Both T7 loose and pellets burn very close to what BH209 burns, peak pressure-wise. The burn durations are very close to BH209 as well, so I feel better scaling back by the 10%. Do I HAVE to? Not likely. Just keep in mind that the more powder the more recoil and most probably the higher the powder charge past 100 grains [v], give or take 10 grains the more likely you are to see great accuracy go downhill.

Weighing, volume measure, its up to you. You won't find much appreciable difference at ranges under 200 yards. Myself I weigh all my charges just to eliminate any deviation....one less part of the overall equation if I have to start picking things apart should an accuracy issue arise.

 

[JeffB1961]

Thanks MrTom . I edited my post because I'm using fffg but I posted ffg . I've read fffg has more power by volume because it's a smaller/finer granulation and to use %10 less fffg than ffg for similar power . Is that correct ? Am I caught up splitting hairs or is this actually relevant ?

I purchase 3 lbs of fffg and 4 packs of federal 209a primers a few weeks ago and last night I was given almost a full 100 box of 777 pellets and 70ish w777 primers so that's why I'm asking .

Thanks again .....

 

[Jitterbug]

Thanks MrTom . I edited my post because I'm using fffg but I posted ffg . I've read fffg has more power by volume because it's a smaller/finer granulation and to use %10 less fffg than ffg for similar power . Is that correct ? Am I caught up splitting hairs or is this actually relevant ?

I purchase 3 lbs of fffg and 4 packs of federal 209a primers a few weeks ago and last night I was given almost a full 100 box of 777 pellets and 70ish w777 primers so that's why I'm asking .

Thanks again .....

If you check the Owner’s Manual, you will find a caution to use only FFg in CVA break-action guns.

If you choose to use FFFg, I think it’s entirely appropriate to back off the maximum powder charge. You’ll probably find your best accuracy WELL down from 150 grains, anyway. Lots of folks seem to do well in the 80-90 grain neighborhood.

The .45-70 cartridge only used 70 grains of black powder in its original guise. I’m under the impression that it killed a lot of bison, in its day…

“Have a blast!”

 

[MrTom]

I do fff in my Accura, 110 grains by volume measure. 250 grain pills. No problemo.

 

[JeffB1961]

thanks , i'll consider myself forewarned

 

[gman57]

I do fff in my Accura, 110 grains by volume measure. 250 grain pills. No problemo.

Same here if Im not using BH

 

[Jbrown69]

looking at CVA's site they say the optima is rated for "..... Your CVA gun utilizes a 209 shotgun shell primer to ignite the powder charge (or musket caps in appropriate markets). It is fully magnum capable*. This means that you can use the “magnum” charge of 150 grains equivalent of pelletized blackpowder substitutes ....." .
https://cva.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Universal-Manualrev11.20.15.pdf
i have 777 fffg powder and some 777 pellets and i'm wondering what volume of 777 fffg powder will equal 150 grains of pellets . i know it won't be 150 grains by weight or volume . i think i read somewhere (i don't recall where) about %80 . soooo 120 grains ??? i have a 2003 model so i don't know it it can handle the same load size as the new models ..... maybe more maybe less ? and FWIU bullet weight plays a factor exp. a heavier bullet creates more pressure for the given powder charge because more weight requires more pressure to get it moving .

i'll be shooting 250-300 grain bullets for deer . i doubt i'd ever want to use the max charge for them ..... but if i want to push the envelope for what my gun can handle or to see how much recoil i can handle i want to know what the optima can safely handle .

also ..... FWIU measuring by volume is fine for hunting/shooting 200 yards and under but going past 200 yards weighing the charge can produce more accuracy ...... is that mostly correct ?

thanks , jeff

I think 120 could be wrong.

 

[JeffB1961]

i'll stick with 110 as a max if i feel the need to experiment or go after something bigger than whitetails .
thanks for the replies folks

 

[cook]

Thanks MrTom . I edited my post because I'm using fffg but I posted ffg . I've read fffg has more power by volume because it's a smaller/finer granulation and to use %10 less fffg than ffg for similar power . Is that correct ? Am I caught up splitting hairs or is this actually relevant ?

I purchase 3 lbs of fffg and 4 packs of federal 209a primers a few weeks ago and last night I was given almost a full 100 box of 777 pellets and 70ish w777 primers so that's why I'm asking .

Thanks again .....

 

[cook]

This might be useful. 245G bullets, 2 pellets (100G equivalent), 1470fps. 3 pellets, 1911.5fps. 100G loose 209, 1955.9fps. 110G 209, 1995.7 fps. T/C Strike, 23” barrel.

 

[ported45]

127.5 grains by volume of FFg Triple Seven is equivalent to 150 grains by volume of FFg black powder. 127.5 grains of FFg loose Triple Seven is equivalent to three 50 grain Triple Seven pellets.

 

[Decay]

There is no such thing as a grain of volume. Grain is a unit of measurement of weight. Dram is a unit of measurement of volume, not commonly used anymore. There is no conversion factor from weight to volume

 

[JeffB1961]

i had forgot about this guys results ....
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/blackhorn-209-vs-777-vs-goex-black-powder/
"..... During my test, I shot 5 shots using a 100gr load and 5 shots of a “max” load of each propellant and measured the muzzle velocity with my Pro Chrono chronograph. I used CCI 209M primers (check out this article for a more detailed discussion of popular muzzleloader primers) in my CVA Optima muzzleloader (which has a 26″ barrel) and shot 250gr PowerBelt AeroLite bullets. All the loads I compared were measured by volume (not mass). ......"





very interesting that 100 grains of 777 ffg produced slightly better velocity/power and trajectory than 100 grains of BH209 .
but BH209 has less SD .
and 777 fffg produces slightly more power than ffg .
so it seems i'd never have any real reason to go over 100 grains of fffg .

 

[ENCORE50A]

My 45cal is pushing a 350gr bullet at 2,173fps using 120grs VOLUME of BH209.

 

[ronlaughlin]

There is no such thing as a grain of volume. Grain is a unit of measurement of weight. Dram is a unit of measurement of volume, not commonly used anymore. There is no conversion factor from weight to volume

True, but...........Imagine oneself hunting back several years. Imagine not wanting to carry a scale around with, out in the sticks so to measure powder. Ingenuity had one fashion a chunk of antler, or some such, to measure one's powder, and make a mark of a volume that made a volume that weighed what one wanted the weight of the powder charge to be. This amounts to a conversion of volume to weight, and it certainly could work to get a measure of powder.

In fact it may have worked so well, it carried into the present??

 

[MrTom]

^
This supports a conversion from volume to weight.

 

[CatamountRob]

It’s a conversion of the volume taken up by a specific weight of black powder. It obviously only works with black powder or the subs that are made to take up the same space. There’s no universal conversion but one could be made for whatever material you want.

 

[GBG]

I think the introduction of new powders with different mass and (more importantly) energy densities, have made the distinction of volume and weight measurement necessary. I personally like seeing both used together, grains-volume/grains-weight or vise versa, to reduce the likelihood of any miscommunication. JMHO.

 

[JeffB1961]

if someone is just using one loose powder is weight vs volume a moot point as long as their not exceeding a safe load/charge and are consistent about using the same amount each time ?