NM Open Sight and Elk Load Questions

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

What projectiles did you end up deciding on?

I haven't decided yet. I will probably order the no excuse variety pack and try to find the right size. Still a little confused on sabot vs no sabot - pros and cons.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

No they do not use sabots. The whole idea is that you can get a conical that fits your barrel, exactly. For the best accuracy.

Got it. Just so I am clear what you are saying - A perfectly fitted conical is superior to a bullet with sabot? As far as accuracy goes?

Thanks!

 

[Bushfire]

I haven't decided yet. I will probably order the no excuse variety pack and try to find the right size. Still a little confused on sabot vs no sabot - pros and cons.

I can give you some poor generalisations. Typically most saboted bullets are going to be modern type bullets that are under bore e.g. hornady monoflex. It's often a copper jacketed bullet that operates like a modern rifle bullet. I think the pros are they can give great performance under the right conditions. For me the cons are that because muzzleloaders don't have great velocity and they drop it quickly large game like elk get dicey.
I killed a buffalo bull with saboted bullets, but it was close range. The thread for that hunt is in the muzzleloader hunting section on this forum if you're interested to see the bullet we recovered.

Full bore conicals are just a large slug of lead, pros are they're going to work well even at low velocities. Cons are because you're looking at something that's going to be 400-600 grains opposed to under 300gn for a saboted bullet its going to have a big arc. If you can adjust for that though other than recoil there aren't too many downsides.

@idahoron makes a paper patched conical. If I had of stuck with shooting my fast twist caplock I think I would have graduated to casting something like what he uses. I've always found Ron great and happy to share information so maybe have a chat with him. As I mentioned earlier (I think) I'm just a round ball guy these days.

 

[ElDiablo]

Still a little confused on sabot vs no sabot - pros and cons.

@Bushfire sums it up fairly well.

For hunting, IMO, a sabot/bullet is the easiest way to achieve good accuracy, speed and terminal performance. The sabot seals the bore and allows the use of dozens of different proven modern jacketed bullets. You get no lead or copper fouling because the plastic sabot is the only thing contacting the bore. You can shoot bullets with a higher ballistic coefficient at a higher speed which allows most factory inlines to be practical to 250 yards or more.

Unless the state you’re hunting in requires a full-bore sized conical, (New Mexico doesn’t) - 9 times out of 10, I’d shoot a saboted bullet.

Nothing wrong with lead conicals though, especially if you anticipate sub 100-150 yard shots. You’ll be limited though when you have a fleeting shot at a big bull at longer range unless you know the exact range and the exact trajectory of your bullet.

 

[FredB]

Got it. Just so I am clear what you are saying - A perfectly fitted conical is superior to a bullet with sabot? As far as accuracy goes?

Thanks!

No, I didn't mean to imply that. My first muzzleloader was a .54 cal MK85, pictured in my avatar. Not knowing what I was doing, I got every sabot Knight offered for it when I got it; 240, 260, 300, and 325 grain. Every one of them produced nice clover leaf groups, (like the good one from my previous post) with the right charge. That was great for when I was stationed in Oklahoma, where I could use sabots. Meanwhile, my home state of Idaho decided to prohibit sabots. Coming home, I had a heck of a time getting my ml to shoot conicals. But you mentioned that a friend of yours found that his ml load was inadequate for elk, and you wanted to avoid that. I'm just telling you what I've found that was quite adequate in my experience. One shot, bang-flop, DRT. (Dead-right-there.) I've taken elk with 30-06, .270, 435 grain Hornady conical from the .54 (poor accuracy but effective), and 420 grain .502 No Excuse. Never had the opportunity to use sabots. But if I did use sabots for elk, I'd start by trying the heaviest ones I could find, and see if my gun liked them.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

I can give you some poor generalisations. Typically most saboted bullets are going to be modern type bullets that are under bore e.g. hornady monoflex. It's often a copper jacketed bullet that operates like a modern rifle bullet. I think the pros are they can give great performance under the right conditions. For me the cons are that because muzzleloaders don't have great velocity and they drop it quickly large game like elk get dicey.
I killed a buffalo bull with saboted bullets, but it was close range. The thread for that hunt is in the muzzleloader hunting section on this forum if you're interested to see the bullet we recovered.

Full bore conicals are just a large slug of lead, pros are they're going to work well even at low velocities. Cons are because you're looking at something that's going to be 400-600 grains opposed to under 300gn for a saboted bullet its going to have a big arc. If you can adjust for that though other than recoil there aren't too many downsides.

@idahoron makes a paper patched conical. If I had of stuck with shooting my fast twist caplock I think I would have graduated to casting something like what he uses. I've always found Ron great and happy to share information so maybe have a chat with him. As I mentioned earlier (I think) I'm just a round ball guy these days.

Got it, thanks for the breakdown. So because of the arc, gotta learn my hold overs really well to make sure I dont hit low when hunting?The paper patched conical comes with a paper patch attached to the end? Or you load a patch when youre loading?

Thanks a ton!

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

@Bushfire sums it up fairly well.

For hunting, IMO, a sabot/bullet is the easiest way to achieve good accuracy, speed and terminal performance. The sabot seals the bore and allows the use of dozens of different proven modern jacketed bullets. You get no lead or copper fouling because the plastic sabot is the only thing contacting the bore. You can shoot bullets with a higher ballistic coefficient at a higher speed which allows most factory inlines to be practical to 250 yards or more.

Unless the state you’re hunting in requires a full-bore sized conical, (New Mexico doesn’t) - 9 times out of 10, I’d shoot a saboted bullet.

Nothing wrong with lead conicals though, especially if you anticipate sub 100-150 yard shots. You’ll be limited though when you have a fleeting shot at a big bull at longer range unless you know the exact range and the exact trajectory of your bullet.

Got it, thanks for the advice. I may order the no excuses sampler pack just to see how my CVA shoots with them.

My homework will be to try shooting various quantities of loose powder with various bullets and see what is most accurate.

Given that I can only use open sights, I don't anticipate shooting much further than 150 yards.

I finally got my EABCO peep rib mounted and a williams from sight. We shall see how that setup works next weekend. I am open to trying some other front sights too, maybe a globe if I am not shooting well with the williams fiber optic front sight.

Thanks!

 

[ElDiablo]

Got it, thanks for the advice. I may order the no excuses sampler pack just to see how my CVA shoots with them.

My homework will be to try shooting various quantities of loose powder with various bullets and see what is most accurate.

Given that I can only use open sights, I don't anticipate shooting much further than 150 yards.

I finally got my EABCO peep rib mounted and a williams from sight. We shall see how that setup works next weekend. I am open to trying some other front sights too, maybe a globe if I am not shooting well with the williams fiber optic front sight.

Thanks!

Let us know how it goes for you!

 

[Dinko43]

Got it, thanks for the advice. I may order the no excuses sampler pack just to see how my CVA shoots with them.

My homework will be to try shooting various quantities of loose powder with various bullets and see what is most accurate.

Given that I can only use open sights, I don't anticipate shooting much further than 150 yards.

I finally got my EABCO peep rib mounted and a williams from sight. We shall see how that setup works next weekend. I am open to trying some other front sights too, maybe a globe if I am not shooting well with the williams fiber optic front sight.

Thanks!

Got it, thanks for the advice. I may order the no excuses sampler pack just to see how my CVA shoots with them.

My homework will be to try shooting various quantities of loose powder with various bullets and see what is most accurate.

Given that I can only use open sights, I don't anticipate shooting much further than 150 yards.

I finally got my EABCO peep rib mounted and a williams from sight. We shall see how that setup works next weekend. I am open to trying some other front sights too, maybe a globe if I am not shooting well with the williams fiber optic front sight.

Thanks!

It should be "after next weekend " by now and I was wondering how your EABCO peep worked.
I too shoot a CVA Optama V2.
I tried one and couldn't get enough adjustment to sight in at 50 yds.
I finally settled with a Williams peep and the stock fiber optic front.
I use No Excuses 420gr .503dia. over 90gr volume 777 and it puts a world of hurt on an elk!
I put a scope on mine to do bullet/load testing just to take out the "old eyes thru a peep" error factor!
I'll be going to the range later this week to bruise the sholder and make sure everything is ready for this year's hunt.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

It should be "after next weekend " by now and I was wondering how your EABCO peep worked.
I too shoot a CVA Optama V2.
I tried one and couldn't get enough adjustment to sight in at 50 yds.
I finally settled with a Williams peep and the stock fiber optic front.
I use No Excuses 420gr .503dia. over 90gr volume 777 and it puts a world of hurt on an elk!
I put a scope on mine to do bullet/load testing just to take out the "old eyes thru a peep" error factor!
I'll be going to the range later this week to bruise the sholder and make sure everything is ready for this year's hunt.

I finally was able to shoot yesterday and the setup worked great!

After installing EABCO peep I set the peep halfway up the ramp just guessing. It somehow was shooting perfectly with no adjustment!

I took one shot at 25, was a tad high but a bullseye. Pushed the target to 100 yards and had two bullseyes, a 1/2 inch group! I couldn't believe it. Better group than I used to shoot with my 2-12 scope on the muzzie, haha.

I was shooting 300 grain precision rifle dead center bullets with 90 grains of 777 powder. I feel like that would take an elk down pretty well? It kicked way hard than two pellets of 777 I used to shoot last year while learning. I have not ordered the No Excuses bullet pack yet. Still might, not sure.

I only took 3 shots as I was helping my buddy zero his newly mounted scope. I plan to go back and shoot more soon. The fiber optic front sight definitely seemed hard, I was just trying to center it as best I could in the peep but I was shooting pretty well with it so I'm hesitant to change anything.

 

[Dinko43]

I finally was able to shoot yesterday and the setup worked great!

After installing EABCO peep I set the peep halfway up the ramp just guessing. It somehow was shooting perfectly with no adjustment!

I took one shot at 25, was a tad high but a bullseye. Pushed the target to 100 yards and had two bullseyes, a 1/2 inch group! I couldn't believe it. Better group than I used to shoot with my 2-12 scope on the muzzie, haha.

I was shooting 300 grain precision rifle dead center bullets with 90 grains of 777 powder. I feel like that would take an elk down pretty well? It kicked way hard than two pellets of 777 I used to shoot last year while learning. I have not ordered the No Excuses bullet pack yet. Still might, not sure.

I only took 3 shots as I was helping my buddy zero his newly mounted scope. I plan to go back and shoot more soon. The fiber optic front sight definitely seemed hard, I was just trying to center it as best I could in the peep but I was shooting pretty well with it so I'm hesitant to change anything.

Wow! If that's the bullet you can do your hunt with, I would be hesitant to change anything too!
Now just shoot out a bit farther than the farthest you think you will have a shot at your bull and get the trajectory memorized.
You'll be eating Elk all winter!
Take lots of pictures and most of all, HAVE FUN.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Thanks for all the advice!

I went shooting again yesterday with mixed results.

the first day when I was shooting bullseyes at 100 I was on a tripod shooting off a table (not a hunting scenario). Yesterday I was shooting off my knee, prone off my backpack and a couple seating shots off the tripod out to 75 yards. I was much less accurate. Still hitting paper but shots were not close to eachother. Hit one bullseye at the end seated off tripod. It was also very windy which didnt help.

Two questions:

#1 Do the experts here think my load is powerful enough to drop a bull? I am shooting a 300 grain precision rifle dead center bullet with 90 grains of loose 777 powder.

#2 Should I try a different front sigh - maybe a globe with crosshair inserts? The fiber optic is tough. the EABCO rear peep looks huge when aiming and the tiny fiber optic is just floating around in the big space. trying to center it in the peep is tough and it does not feel very precise.

I know the fiber optic is better in low light than a globe with inserts but I am wondering what other front sight options there are that might increase my accuracy?

Thanks all!

 

[ElDiablo]

Thanks for all the advice!

I went shooting again yesterday with mixed results.

the first day when I was shooting bullseyes at 100 I was on a tripod shooting off a table (not a hunting scenario). Yesterday I was shooting off my knee, prone off my backpack and a couple seating shots off the tripod out to 75 yards. I was much less accurate. Still hitting paper but shots were not close to eachother. Hit one bullseye at the end seated off tripod. It was also very windy which didnt help.

Two questions:

#1 Do the experts here think my load is powerful enough to drop a bull? I am shooting a 300 grain precision rifle dead center bullet with 90 grains of loose 777 powder.

#2 Should I try a different front sigh - maybe a globe with crosshair inserts? The fiber optic is tough. the EABCO rear peep looks huge when aiming and the tiny fiber optic is just floating around in the big space. trying to center it in the peep is tough and it does not feel very precise.

I know the fiber optic is better in low light than a globe with inserts but I am wondering what other front sight options there are that might increase my accuracy?

Thanks all!

1. Yes, with proper shot placement.
2. Maybe you should try a smaller aperture on the rear if the current one feels to large. Personally, for an elk hunt, I’d stick with the fiber optic front. In low light especially in the timber, you may have a tough time making out a fine crosshair. You’re using the Williams Western Precision right?

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?searchTerm=Williams+twilight

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

1. Yes, with proper shot placement.
2. Maybe you should try a smaller aperture on the rear if the current one feels to large. Personally, for an elk hunt, I’d stick with the fiber optic front. In low light especially in the timber, you may have a tough time making out a fine crosshair. You’re using the Williams Western Precision right?

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?searchTerm=Williams+twilight

1. For killing power would you go with a bigger bullet or with more powder?
2. Good points on the low light. I have the EABCO peep rib, I just called and they only have one size rear aperture.

 

[ElDiablo]

I think you’ll be fine with that load.

Doesn’t your Peep rib allow the use of different apertures (like the Williams I linked to above)? Mine does.

 

[mm106807]

I’ve harvested 3 Elk with 100 grains of pyrodex and 405 grain lead powerbelts. With my TC Hawken with a green mountain barrel. 1-28 twist. Iron peep sights. None of them went more than 75 yards.

 

[Dinko43]

I’ve harvested 3 Elk with 100 grains of pyrodex and 405 grain lead powerbelts. With my TC Hawken with a green mountain barrel. 1-28 twist. Iron peep sights. None of them went more than 75 yards.

mm106807, just curious, did the bullets break in half after entering the animal?
The last 2 times I used powerbelts (1 deer at 30 yds and 1 calf elk at 125 yds) The bullet split in two at the ribcage and 1 half went on thru the lungs and out the opposite side while the other half veered off and went through the guts!

Both animals had 1 entrance hole and 2 exit holes!
I haven't used powerbelts for hunting ever since.

 

[mm106807]

mm106807, just curious, did the bullets break in half after entering the animal?
The last 2 times I used powerbelts (1 deer at 30 yds and 1 calf elk at 125 yds) The bullet split in two at the ribcage and 1 half went on thru the lungs and out the opposite side while the other half veered off and went through the guts!

Both animals had 1 entrance hole and 2 exit holes!
I haven't used powerbelts for hunting ever since.

No they held together pretty good. These were the lead hollow point 405 Powerbelts. I also harvested a nice 4 point Muley with same load and it dropped him. None of the shots were more than 100 yards.

 

[mm106807]

That gun liked that load combo.

 

[Ed Bryant]

where did you hunt