209 primer thoughts

[AveragEd]

A recent shooting magazine (I forget which one) contained an article by a respected author who stated that using non-muzzleloader-specific 209 primers can lead to a reduction in accuracy through higher muzzle velocity deviation. He stated that the higher energy of standard 209s can move the power charge - and, I guess, the projectile - forward prior to ignition of the powder charge which results in erratic combustion and velocity variation. He recommended only using 209 primers marketed as being for inline muzzleloader use.

Having always used Federal 209A primers, the hottest of the type along with the CCI 209M (which very well could be identical in composition since they are manufactured by the same parent company), if anyone could be a victim of that phenomenon it could be me. Accordingly, I'm going to try some Federal PMZ209s in my T/C Encore Pro Hunter and compare accuracy with the 209As but I'm having doubts about this whole thing.

Those doubts are brought on via my ownership of a Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader. That rifle uses large rifle magnum primers in order to be able to fully ignite up to 200 grains by volume of black powder or a substitute so you would think that if any primer would cause the problem that writer mentioned it would be that one. But then, finding a bullet/powder combination that rifle shoots with consistent accuracy was very challenging. However, Ultimate Firearms, the company from which Remington purchased the rights to use that ignition system, is known for accurate rifles so who knows?

Hopefully, one of you!

Ed

 

[GM54-120]

If there was any truth to this dont you think the guys at Friendship would be beating down the doors to switch from hot 209s. The simple fact is they are not and some are shooting record breaking scores with mag 209s.

Its a myth

 

[ENCORE50A]

When shooting the Encore platform for years, I always used CCI209M primers when using BH209 or loose propellants and there was no issue. Now with pellets, IIRC that's why they went to designated muzzleloader primers with less pressure.

The LRMP's used with the RUM and UF rifles, are hotter, but have less pressure. Actually the guys are getting the Remington Ultimate shooting excellent. The UF rifles just flat out shoot. At least mine always has....

 

[Boomer]

Magazine writers have to be selling something. Remember hearing that the muzzleloader specific primers eliminated the crud ring. I use Federal 209A for in-line and smokeless. Only issue I have had was when I tried some ‘Winchester 209 Primers for In-Line Muzzleloading Rifles’. Found they didn’t fit as well (they seemed smaller) in primer pockets that were setup for Federals. Have been told that the supposed hotter Federal primers were the best choice for smokeless. They have never been an issue and are all I use.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Well Ed, i cannot tell you anything about the Ultimate rifles, but i can say, beyond doubt. the muzzle loader primers will not light Blackhorn powder in any of my rifles. In my Omega (s), or Knight rifles, when the load is Blackhorn powder, it is necessary to use standard shotgun primers, or magnum rifle primers to light the load. Standard shotgun primers, magnum shotgun primers or magnum rifle primers reliably light Blackhorn powder in all my rifles. The muzzle loading primers don't, don't, in any of my rifles.

 

[AveragEd]

I don't use Blackhorn 209 due to its potentially corrosive nature. Back when it first came out, I bought a bottle ($38.00 for 10 ounces!?) and didn't see any improvement in accuracy or muzzle velocity compared to Alliant's Black MZ plus I was concerned about the cleaning warnings so I called Western Powders. I was told that the residue left from Blackhorn 209 will condensate if not removed soon after shooting. It took several minutes of pressing before the guy admitted that condensation is moisture and moisture on steel causes rust. Even stainless steel barrels can rust as the stainless used in firearms is 400-grade stainless which contains some carbon for hardening and therefore is not rust-proof. Black MZ actually has "virtually non-corrosive" on its label and shoots a lot like Blackhorn 209 as far as smoke and performance goes plus can be cleaned with normal black powder agents. And it costs $28.00 for a full pound!

As soon as the Pennsylvania weather cooperates, I'll give the new primers a try. As stated above, I have reservations but experimentation is part of the fun of gun ownership. For much of 2018, we might as well had been living in the Pacific Northwest as it has either been windy, cold, raining or a combination of all three. And as I write this, snow is falling.

Ed

 

[bestill]

Blackhorn 209 and federal 209a and proper fitting sabot or bullet.

Is extremely accurate.

Many of the record scores at nmlra inline matchs have been shot with this combination.

If shooting substitute this is it.

 

[SuperKirby]

I’ve only had a failure to fire twice since I’ve been shooting muzzleloaders. Both times were hunting in below zero temps using a standard primer. Never had a problem with the Fed 209a’s or CCI209mags.

 

[ronlaughlin]

I don't use Blackhorn 209 due to its potentially corrosive nature............

Ed

 

[ronlaughlin]

Well then, you can use the made for muzzle loader primers, and they will ignite your powder, and they won't push the stuff up the barrel.

 

[45-70]

I have had winchester 209 primers blow the bullet completely out the barrel , when powder doesn't ignite. so on a misfire it is good idea to reseat your bullet

 

[MrTom]

I don't use Blackhorn 209 due to its potentially corrosive nature..... "Black MZ actually has "virtually non-corrosive" on its label".....

Ed

ALL of the powders used in muzzleloading are corrosive to some extent , potentially or otherwise. The 209 is the least corrosive I have latched onto based on used in blued steel and stainless steel guns and compared to the corrosive nature of any of the other subs or black itself. I'll assume that your Black MZ powder's statement was in bold print. What does the smaller print say? Sorry, but I say you are blowing smoke about the amount of smoke with the 209 powder.

 

[GM54-120]

BlackMZ is nothing more than an American Pioneer Powder. Same chemical composition so its just as corrosive as any of them. Well, you might wanna go buy all you can find because the last i heard its no longer being made.

BTW when comparing price figure in the amount needed for velocity. It wont be as cheap as BlackMZ/APP but its a far better comparison. BlackMZ is not exactly a great fps performer and its a heavy powder. Its not even remotely as fast as BH209.

 

[457121]

I thought the whole idea of the special 209 ML'er primers was to reduce the crud ring when using Triple 7 and standard 209 primers. Blackhorn 209 was never in the design parameters of the reduced powder ML'er specific primers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I can not speak for other Black powder substitutes other than Blackhorn 209. I have Large rifle primer guns and 209 guns . Both styles I can not tell a difference in accuracy usung Federals,Winchester or CCIs using Blackhorn 209.

The large rifle primer systems i absolutley can not tell any difference . With the 209 guns on rare occasions the Winchester 209s ( because of the longer length)will seal better than Federals or CCIz when guns are not properly head spaced.

 

[AveragEd]

I guess my two T/Cs and 700 rifles are exceptions as they are only about 20fps behind Blackhorn 209 with the same volume of powder. And I think the crud ring thing is specific to powders as I got it with Triple Seven and Pyrodex but not with Blackhorn 209 and Black MZ. Hey, it's all in what trips your trigger, right? Having so many choices is a good thing.

A check of Alliant's website just now shows Black MZ and its pellet version, Blue MZ, to be currently available. I hope that is factual as I really like Black MZ - Blue MZ was slightly less accurate for me but that seems to be typical for pellets vs. loose powder.

I must confess that I'm kind of anal about accuracy. I want varmint rifle groups from my hunting rifles and match rifle groups from my varminters so some might think my expectations are a bit unreasonable. Three- and four-inch groups at 100 yards don't do it for me regardless of the firearm type.

Someone mentioned great accuracy from his Remington Ultimate. I was sent one for testing by Remington when they were introduced and absolutely could not get better than three-inch groups at 100 yards with any combination of components - and I spent $483 on powders and bullets in the process - or with two Leupold scopes, one a 12-power. Their website advertises centerfire-like accuracy so I called Remington. The rifle product manager sent me a second rifle from later production that was no better so I met with a gentleman from Remington at the Great American Outdoor Show in nearby Harrisburg who was reported to have a lot of positive experience with those rifles. Long story cut very short, his idea of "great accuracy" was 11 inches at 300 yards. Hmm - it might not be the most accurate method of measurement but dividing 11 by 3 gives you almost 3-3/4" groups at 100 yards. And 11 inches could very easily result in a wounded animal. I kept the first one of those rifles as I had replaced the hard "stock protector" with a Limbsaver recoil pad and because of its uniqueness. In time, I have been able to get fairly consistent cloverleaf-like groups at 100 yards using 295-grain Powerbelts (of all things!) over 120 grains of Black MZ but the darned thing is just too heavy for this olde phart to lug around Penns Woods.

By the way, that gentleman told me the laminated stock model was going to be changed to a "carbine" by cutting the barrel to 20 or 22 inches but that has never happened. If the shorter barrel would not hurt the rifle's exterior ballistics a lot, that might be a neat idea.

Thanks for all the replies!

Ed

 

[Boomer]

I thought the whole idea of the special 209 ML'er primers was to reduce the crud ring when using Triple 7 and standard 209 primers. Blackhorn 209 was never in the design parameters of the reduced powder ML'er specific primers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The makers of BH209 do not recommend the use of the so called ‘muzzleloader’ primers.

 

[GM54-120]

BlueMZ has nothing in common with BlackMZ. Its just a rebranded IMR Whitehot. Identical composition as Whitehots and made under the same patent.

You certainly must be the only one because ive seen numerous fps comparisons by non paid/sponsored sources and not a single one was close. Around 85grV will give you similar speed as 100-110grV of BlackMZ. BH209 weighs roughly 70gr for 100grV and BlackMZ is nearly 90gr in actual weight for 100grV. So yes its not even close.

 

[SuperKirby]

I’ll have to go check but I believe Western Powders recommends the hotter primers and advises you not use the muzzleloader specific primers.

When I first got into muzzleloaders, I was instructed to use APP and that the bottle said it was virtually non corrosive so I didn’t have to clean. Short story is I still have that muzzleloader and I consider unsafe to shoot. The breech plug threads are completely corroded. All subs are corrosive.

 

[AveragEd]

BlueMZ has nothing in common with BlackMZ. Its just a rebranded IMR Whitehot. Identical composition as Whitehots and made under the same patent.

You certainly must be the only one because ive seen numerous fps comparisons by non paid/sponsored sources and not a single one was close. Around 85grV will give you similar speed as 100-110grV of BlackMZ. BH209 weighs roughly 70gr for 100grV and BlackMZ is nearly 90gr in actual weight for 100grV. So yes its not even close.

Now that you mention the IMR connection to Blue MZ, I do recall reading something about that a few years ago. Thank you for the reminder. For me, memory was the second thing to go and I can't recall what the first one was.

Well, I guess I'm just lucky because both my ProChrono and Labradar show them to be very close in my rifles but now that I think about it, I might have been using 10 or so grains more Black MZ - it's been perhaps five years since I shot any Blackhorn 209 so I can't say with certainty. I just never realized any accuracy improvement with it, at least not enough to be bothered with.

Ed