45cal vs. 50cal vs. 20gauge low recoil selection

[atjurhs]

Hi guys,

The main hunting ground where my son and I are now able to shoot is a Federal Reservation, and they will not let you shoot rifles, only bows, MLs or Slug Guns, so for Christmas I want to get my son (who weighs all of 80lbs) either 45 or 50cal ML or a 20gauge Slug Gun.

Currently he likes to shoot a 243. He has a 7mm-08 which is a bit much for him, but he can shoot it really well, just more kick than he wants, and he can't shoot it on the Federal Reservation. Oh, and our absolute longest shot would be 200yds, but more likely under 100yds.

I have a CVA 50cal OptimaV2 shooting a 300gr sabots with 100gr of BH209 and I really like shooting it! Because it makes so much noise and smoke, it scares my son from shooting it, but I'm betting that if I tame down the load to XXXgr sabot and XXgr of BH209 that he would find out that a 50cal ML isn't that much kick.

My other two options would be to get him a 45cal ML, but all those that I've found on the net so far are $$$ or a 20ga slug gun. What I don't know is which will have the most and least kick? Can I configure a 50cal (which gives me the most shooting options) to have low recoil? Would a 45cal have much less recoil to be worth paying the extra $$$ I don't know if the 20ga shooting Hornady FTX 250gr 2.75 Sabots would have more or less recoil than the Muzzys?

Thanks in advance for your input, my son will GREATLY appreciate your help

Todd

 

[cayuga]

Try shooting some 240 grain XTPs out of your Optima with 70 grains of 2f powder. That is pretty low in the recoil department and perhaps if you feel the same, let your son try that load. If he can shoot that he should be good out to 75 yards at least. Then just get him a muzzleloader. Personally, I like the .50 caliber.

 

[ShawnT]

Typically recoil increases with an increase of bullet weight or powder charge. There are a couple options I can think of in similar fashion to what cayuga mentioned with the 44cal XTP in the 44x50 green sabot (good bullet for a light charge too). I also set up a light load for my niece one year, but we never harvested a deer. The load was a PR 215gn Lead QT bullet that is .40 caliber in a blue 50 cal sabot, (Cabela's used to sell them) and 80 or 85 grains of Pyrodex. Recoil was about the same as the .243, very easy on the shoulder. Another one would be the 44cal 200 grain shockwave also in the same green sabot. With lighter powder charges I would also recommend limiting his shots to 100 yards or less since the lighter bullet will loose steam pretty fast after that.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/539065 ... uctFinding

http://www.prbullet.com/pt.htm

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/745754 ... uctFinding

If you find the time try those first in yours like Dave mentioned, then decide. The 50 cal is definitely very versatile. Most of the good 20ga loads are going to recoil pretty good especially if you use a light single shot shotgun. I don't have any experience with the .45 but would imagine you could very similarly set up a lighter XTP or some such bullet with a light charge and have a good youth load.

 

[atjurhs]

so let me see if I understand this correctly?

a 50cal muzzy shooting a 240 XTP 44cal using a green sabot and 70gr of powder. At Harvester, I only found 260 XTPs for 50cal, maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

looks like the PR Polymer Tip will have something lighter, they had both a 215 and a 235 in 40cal, that would take a blue colored sabot?

now that I've switched over to BH209 would that give a higher recoil or about the same as a Pyrodex or a Triple 7

 

[GM54-120]

You must have overlooked them

50 Cal. Sabot 240 gr. .430 Hornady XTP Bullet 12pack
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... &Itemid=18

50 Cal. Sabot 240 gr. .430 Hornady XTP Bullet 20pack
http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/i ... &Itemid=18

Or you can just buy the sabots in 50 packs and buy the Hornady .430 240gr XTP in bulk 100 packs
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... uctId/5479
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... uctId/6530

A step up would be the Barnes .430 225gr XPB in the same sabot.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... ctId/27677

 

[atjurhs]

I like that

A step up would be the Barnes .430 225gr XPB in the same sabot.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... ctId/27677

and you say that the

HARVESTER 50cal SABOT for 44cal BULLET 50/bx 12/cs

will work with them?

if so that sounds like a solution

any other feedback on the BH209 vs. ??? for low recoil. I just got myself set up for BH209, and if there isn't a big difference between that and some other powder like Pyrodex or Triple 7 or good old BlackPowder then I'd just a soon put him on BH209 as well?

Thanks for the help!!!

Todd

 

[GM54-120]

Yes, just get the sabots if you want to use other bullets. They come in 50 packs. You can get the Harvester 50x44 green sabot directly from Harvester OR places like Cabelas and Grafs. That little Barnes 225gr XPB is a great lighter bullet. I shoot the 225gr .451 XPB version in the Harvester Smooth Black sabot in my ULA.

Green SMOOTH
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... &Itemid=18

Or if you have a tighter bore

Green Crushrib
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... &Itemid=18

Personally i prefer the Green Smooth if i was going to shoot the .430 bullets.

 

[atjurhs]

at the PRBULLETS website I found QT Polymer Tip bullets for a 50cal in

180gr.
195gr.
215gr.

I;m thinking I'll start him off with the 180gr. and work him up to the 215gr. once he gets comfortable

 

[atjurhs]

ok so the final question is about BH209 vs. other types of powder/pellets.

will BH209 be anymore or anyless "explosive" than others propellants such that it will translate into more or less "recoil"

 

[Squeeze]

Yes BH is the hottest of the Blackpowder subs, all that means is you can use a bit less. You can match bullet speed with any powder. Say, If you want XX bullet in XX sabot to shoot at XX fps velocity (the load you found accurate with BH powder) you may load 60 grn BH, but can match that with 68 grns seven, 69 grn swiss, 70 grn old eyensford, 75 pyrodex, 74 goex, etc.. These measurements are just an example, and probably not true to scale, but especially with a chrono, if you find an accurate load, you can pretty much match it with any powder. Depending on what gun you end up with, whether or not its set up for BH, or you want to spend the $$ to get it there, or just shoot alternatives.

 

[GM54-120]

Recoil is directly related to FPS and TOTAL discharge weight. That weight also includes the powder weight. BH209 by VOLUME is lighter than Triple7 and other subs.

Recoil would be slightly less in some cases and higher in others. BH209 does produce higher fps when you reach a certain bullet weight or powder weight. It might produce less fps than Triple7 at the bottom end of the scale.

The recoil difference would likely be too small to really be a concern though.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Please correct me if i am wrong, but if Blackhorn produces the same velocities other powders do, but with less weight, then Blackhorn will make less recoil in all cases. However, the amount of less recoil, would be negligible.

 

[atjurhs]

thanks! this thread has been extremely helpful and enabled me to make an informed decision as to what to get him!

for the 180gr PR round, would 60gr BH209 be a good starting place or too low?

 

[Hardwoodmaterials]

My wife uses 90gr BH209 and a 240gr Harvester Scorpion funnel point out of her Optima 50cal and the recoil isn't bad at all. She killed a nice 8 point at 60-70yds with it Saturday evening and it never took another step after she shot. If the recoil really bothers your son put a slip on limbsaver on the gun. They really help cut down on the felt recoil.

 

[WV Hunter]

thanks! this thread has been extremely helpful and enabled me to make an informed decision as to what to get him!

for the 180gr PR round, would 60gr BH209 be a good starting place or too low?

The load of 60gr with 180gr bullet would probably work just fine.... BUT, I can't speak to that bullet specifically as to how it performs on deer. Maybe someone else can. To me, that's a big factor in selecting the setup...equally as important as him being able to handle the load.

I'd bet he could handle a 240gr bullet w 70gr powder with no problems.
You have alot of options of quality bullets in the 200gr - 240gr range. Speer Deep Curl (Gold Dot), Nosler, XTP, Shockwave, etc.

Good luck, post some pics of the youngster shooting (and with his deer!)

 

[ShawnT]

My wife uses 90gr BH209 and a 240gr Harvester Scorpion funnel point out of her Optima 50cal and the recoil isn't bad at all. She killed a nice 8 point at 60-70yds with it Saturday evening and it never took another step after she shot. If the recoil really bothers your son put a slip on limbsaver on the gun. They really help cut down on the felt recoil.

I am not sure but since the Qt is a "Pointed" Lead bullet, and I don't know if they are pure lead or are a bit harder. You need to get it going a bit to expand. Try it and see, But if it were me setting it up for a youth I think in the 70 to 85 grain charge and you would be good plus it is not going to recoil much. I shot the 215gn QT with 2 Pyrodex pellets and that is probably close to the equivalent of 80 to 85 grains of loose powder. The Rifle really did not have much recoil at all and was very accurate. I know if he can shoot the .243 ok he can shoot that load.

If I recall right there is one member here that has a youth load set up for a boy close to yours boys age and I do believe they are shooting the 240 XTP with only 50 or 60 grain charges. I think in a charge weight that low I would prefer the wider meplat of the light XTP.

If you get the 180 QT let him shoot one at 60 then 70 then 80 grain charges and see what how he does with it. But really a charge of 80 or 85 with the 215gn will surprise you how low the recoil is, it did me, and the 180 would be even lighter.

 

[sqezer]

thanks! this thread has been extremely helpful and enabled me to make an informed decision as to what to get him!

for the 180gr PR round, would 60gr BH209 be a good starting place or too low?

The load of 60gr with 180gr bullet would probably work just fine.... BUT, I can't speak to that bullet specifically as to how it performs on deer. Maybe someone else can. To me, that's a big factor in selecting the setup...equally as important as him being able to handle the load.

I'd bet he could handle a 240gr bullet w 70gr powder with no problems.
You have alot of options of quality bullets in the 200gr - 240gr range. Speer Deep Curl (Gold Dot), Nosler, XTP, Shockwave, etc.

Good luck, post some pics of the youngster shooting (and with his deer!)

If a 90 gr. bullet from a .243 will take down a deer and even an ELK then a 180 gr. XTP sure will nock a whitetail off his feet.

 

[WV Hunter]

If a 90 gr. bullet from a .243 will take down a deer and even an ELK then a 180 gr. XTP sure will nock a whitetail off his feet.

Oh, no doubt.... I wasn't saying it wasn't heavy enough, just don't know much about how that bullet performs...and that must be considered (imo) especially at a lower powder charge. They may work just fine. Most of the one's I mentioned are available in 200gr, and have stellar track records.

 

[sqezer]

If I get the chance I'm thinking of trying the .45 with a .380 XTP ( 9MM ) in a MMP Blue sabot .355-.357 bullet wt. 138 gr. it will sure have some speed. First off I need to get a deer with the 200 gr. Leigh Sabotlees first.

 

[ShawnT]

He was talking about the 180 grain QT from PR bullets. It is a lead bullet with a plastic ballistic tip. It is not show in this picture but is like the 40 caliber bullets on the right with blue tip.