A few question's,i just don't understand why

[SwampFox]

Hi, guys,Let me first start off via saying that i am not trying to start a fued about some stuff that i just do not understand and a few thing's about myself.I have been shooting Black powder guns for over 35 years and have been a part time gunsmith building custom bolt action centerfire rifles and hot salt bluing guns since the mid 60's.I done this up until 2004 at which time i had a bad stroke that has left my whole left side bum up, so i had to give up everything to do with guns except shooting them and in my case the Black Powder guns stems me to no end.Now that's enought about me so on to my question's.Please bare with me and my spelling,ok?

Question=1
How is the crud ring left via 777 hurting you and in which way?Is the crud ring hurting you from loading?Is it hurting your accurary? Are in any other way that it might hurt you?
I myself have been shooting 777 ever since it came out.The crud ring is left there no dought about that ,but it has not hurt nor help me in any way that i have seen.I shoot the hottest 209 primer i can find/get all the time,infact i wish i could find the CCI 209M Primer local more often,as that is all i would ever use.Yea i know that they say that these hotter 209 primer's cause the crud rind from 777 to be worse,and in my case i have never seen any harm from this crud ring.It cleans right off with wet Patch even.And yes they say these Hot 209 Primer's unseat's bullet before ignition happen's.I just Flat out do not think that is happening and until someone can show me this in a cut away video of this occuring,i for one will never believe it,plain and simple!!.The Flame from the Hot 209 primer is embeded within the same percussion that they say/claim is unseating the bullet and at the same time there by igniteing the powder charge.So i just do not underatand why some may want to risk a misfire via a marginal.
ignition.

question=2
Why and how is it that alot of guy's say they get the best accuracy with say 76.3 grains are 79 grains of a curtain kind of powder.I would really like to know why is there guns are so sensitive to a only few grain's of powder diffrence that it makes are break's there accuracy/groups?
Like i said above.I have been shooting Black Powder guns for a long time and have own and shot great amount of makes and models.I have yet to see one yet that is so sestitive that a few grains of powder made any diffrence in my accuracy in any of them.

I myself now shoot mainly my 50 cal.Knight Magnum Disc rifle and infact i can shoot same group size with with same P.O.I. out to 100 yards with
3= 50 grain 777 pellets as i can with 100 grain's of Black Mag 3 are 120 grain losse 777 and all the way down to 70 grains of loose 777 as long as i stay with a 250 grain polmer tip bullet.Why are there gun's so sensitive to a mere few grains of powder diffrence?
I just don't understand all these things above.So anyone with a answer are a great guess even,lol.please by all means chime in.Thanks

 

[alphaburnt]

Swamp Fox welcome to the forum. I am no expert, but I will try to address your questions from my point of view.

Question #1: For me, its a matter of inconvenience. When shooting bullets/sabots that are tight fitting in the bore, you absolutely must swab the crud ring out if you hope to seat the bullet combo on the powder charge, otherwise accuracy could suffer and is dangerous. For a follow up shot, this may be of no concern but IF you miss ( I know none of us never do that :lol: ) this creates a problem. When shooting the other powders, I never experienced a crud ring-but with the advantages of the T7 it is a compromise I decided to accept. As far as the hotter primer causing the bullet to move, Randy Wakeman says if anything that should increase your accuracy- I dunno.


Question #2: In order to wring the most accuracy out of a muzzleloader and being a tinkerer, I like to use loose powder charges and experiment to get there. I learned this on this forum from others. Another thing I learned is that when you find the powder charge your gun likes, you can throw 5 or so volume charges ( I was a little amazed to see how much variation this yields) and then weigh them to find out an average and that is why you will see the 76.3 etc from myself and others. Volume measurers do have a discrepancy from brand to brand ie TC vs Traditions vs Knight so 100 in one might not be 100 in another. I do not think this is a must as far as hunting accuracy goes, as usually a 4" group will suffice in most all hunting situations at 100 yards and less. As far as pellets go, I used them this year for the first time as a stroke of luck the Barnes 290 TMZ shot good groups over two T7 pellets charge. I was having some scope issues and running out of time and happened on to these, they done a great job. The problem with pellets is that sometimes you can have variations in them and for hunting this would probably never cost you an animal but for wringing the most accuracy out of your gun this could be a problem. So I used pellets for the first time and was successful. To sum it up, most of this just boils down to being picky and appeals to some of us but not all of us.

 

[cayuga]

Question=1
How is the crud ring left via 777 hurting you and in which way?Is the crud ring hurting you from loading?Is it hurting your accurary? Are in any other way that it might hurt you?

There is a possibility of the crud ring build up causing an inexperienced shooter to actually not seat the projectile on the powder charge. You as a gun builder and long time shooter know the danger that creates. They feel the projectile hit the crud ring, think they are on the charge and can not push it further. They have technically made a dangerous load there.

I myself have been shooting 777 ever since it came out.The crud ring is left there no dought about that ,but it has not hurt nor help me in any way that i have seen.I shoot the hottest 209 primer i can find/get all the time,infact i wish i could find the CCI 209M Primer local more often,as that is all i would ever use.Yea i know that they say that these hotter 209 primer's cause the crud rind from 777 to be worse,and in my case i have never seen any harm from this crud ring.It cleans right off with wet Patch even.And yes they say these Hot 209 Primer's unseat's bullet before ignition happen's.I just Flat out do not think that is happening and until someone can show me this in a cut away video of this occuring,i for one will never believe it,plain and simple!!.The Flame from the Hot 209 primer is embeded within the same percussion that they say/claim is unseating the bullet and at the same time there by igniteing the powder charge.So i just do not underatand why some may want to risk a misfire via a marginal.
ignition. Some people do not share your experience. With a less hot 209 primer they still get excellent ignition and it reduces the amount of crud ring they experience with the powder.

question=2
Why and how is it that alot of guy's say they get the best accuracy with say 76.3 grains are 79 grains of a curtain kind of powder.I would really like to know why is there guns are so sensitive to a only few grain's of powder diffrence that it makes are break's there accuracy/groups?
Like i said above.I have been shooting Black Powder guns for a long time and have own and shot great amount of makes and models.I have yet to see one yet that is so sestitive that a few grains of powder made any diffrence in my accuracy in any of them.

While I agree most rifles, the addition or subtraction of a few grains of powder will not make a big difference. But you must agree that the road to best accuracy is consistency. So if a person is shooting 79 grains of powder and taking efforts to reproduce that exact powder charge each and every time, it adds to the consistency factor and should in the long run increase the overall performance of the bullet. That is why some people weigh out their powder charges instead of using the volume measure.

I myself now shoot mainly my 50 cal.Knight Magnum Disc rifle and infact i can shoot same group size with with same P.O.I. out to 100 yards with
3= 50 grain 777 pellets as i can with 100 grain's of Black Mag 3 are 120 grain losse 777 and all the way down to 70 grains of loose 777 as long as i stay with a 250 grain polmer tip bullet.Why are there gun's so sensitive to a mere few grains of powder diffrence?
I just don't understand all these things above.So anyone with a answer are a great guess even,lol.please by all means chime in.Thanks.

Maybe you have a lucky rifle. Most of my rifles, inline or traditional, you start changing powder charges or projectiles, you will change your POI and your group size at 100 yards.

 

[SwampFox]

Thanks MQ32shooter for your reply back.Do you think your gun is so sensitive to a few grains of powder diffrence one way are the other that it makes are breaks your gun's accuracy? Also i have nerver had any issue at all with the 777 crud ring as far as loading a fast secound shot.The crud ring is there,but it has nerver cause me any harm in any inline ML i have ever own.and i have own somewhere around 12 to 13 inlines from TC's CVA's and TRAD.I guess i have nerver own a tight enought bored gun for the crud ring to be a issue with.lol

Swamp Fox welcome to the forum. I am no expert, but I will try to address your questions from my point of view.

Question #1: For me, its a matter of inconvenience. When shooting bullets/sabots that are tight fitting in the bore, you absolutely must swab the crud ring out if you hope to seat the bullet combo on the powder charge, otherwise accuracy could suffer and is dangerous. For a follow up shot, this may be of no concern but IF you miss ( I know none of us never do that :lol: ) this creates a problem. When shooting the other powders, I never experienced a crud ring-but with the advantages of the T7 it is a compromise I decided to accept. As far as the hotter primer causing the bullet to move, Randy Wakeman says if anything that should increase your accuracy- I dunno.


Question #2: In order to wring the most accuracy out of a muzzleloader and being a tinkerer, I like to use loose powder charges and experiment to get there. I learned this on this forum from others. Another thing I learned is that when you find the powder charge your gun likes, you can throw 5 or so volume charges ( I was a little amazed to see how much variation this yields) and then weigh them to find out an average and that is why you will see the 76.3 etc from myself and others. Volume measurers do have a discrepancy from brand to brand ie TC vs Traditions vs Knight so 100 in one might not be 100 in another. I do not think this is a must as far as hunting accuracy goes, as usually a 4" group will suffice in most all hunting situations at 100 yards and less. As far as pellets go, I used them this year for the first time as a stroke of luck the Barnes 290 TMZ shot good groups over two T7 pellets charge. I was having some scope issues and running out of time and happened on to these, they done a great job. The problem with pellets is that sometimes you can have variations in them and for hunting this would probably never cost you an animal but for wringing the most accuracy out of your gun this could be a problem. So I used pellets for the first time and was successful. To sum it up, most of this just boils down to being picky and appeals to some of us but not all of us.

 

[SwampFox]

Thanks cayuga for your reply .But i have own and shot of black powder guns,in my life time.And yes while weighting smokeless powder creates a more and percise chamber pressure and is a most .Black powder and it's substitue's, all have alot of varyable's in there burn rate compare to smokeless powder's and a few grains of diffrence should not make are break there gun's accuracy.
I can see what you mean via the crud ring might make some shooter's from stoping short of seating the bullet all the way down.But that is the shooter's fault,not the crud ring.
I have had misfires over the years.If one use's a marginial primer one risk a misfire more often.I myself say, why risk a misfire when more fire/flame will mininize the risk of a misfire are a hang fire.I know alot of peps would disagree with my point of view on this matter.Common sence tell's me anyway , that a bigger flame could have a much better chance of 100% iginition more often than not.I am not saying that a lesser primer can not do the job.What i am saying is the Hotter should be better.Thanks

Question=1
How is the crud ring left via 777 hurting you and in which way?Is the crud ring hurting you from loading?Is it hurting your accurary? Are in any other way that it might hurt you?

There is a possibility of the crud ring build up causing an inexperienced shooter to actually not seat the projectile on the powder charge. You as a gun builder and long time shooter know the danger that creates. They feel the projectile hit the crud ring, think they are on the charge and can not push it further. They have technically made a dangerous load there.

I myself have been shooting 777 ever since it came out.The crud ring is left there no dought about that ,but it has not hurt nor help me in any way that i have seen.I shoot the hottest 209 primer i can find/get all the time,infact i wish i could find the CCI 209M Primer local more often,as that is all i would ever use.Yea i know that they say that these hotter 209 primer's cause the crud rind from 777 to be worse,and in my case i have never seen any harm from this crud ring.It cleans right off with wet Patch even.And yes they say these Hot 209 Primer's unseat's bullet before ignition happen's.I just Flat out do not think that is happening and until someone can show me this in a cut away video of this occuring,i for one will never believe it,plain and simple!!.The Flame from the Hot 209 primer is embeded within the same percussion that they say/claim is unseating the bullet and at the same time there by igniteing the powder charge.So i just do not underatand why some may want to risk a misfire via a marginal.
ignition. Some people do not share your experience. With a less hot 209 primer they still get excellent ignition and it reduces the amount of crud ring they experience with the powder.

question=2
Why and how is it that alot of guy's say they get the best accuracy with say 76.3 grains are 79 grains of a curtain kind of powder.I would really like to know why is there guns are so sensitive to a only few grain's of powder diffrence that it makes are break's there accuracy/groups?
Like i said above.I have been shooting Black Powder guns for a long time and have own and shot great amount of makes and models.I have yet to see one yet that is so sestitive that a few grains of powder made any diffrence in my accuracy in any of them.

While I agree most rifles, the addition or subtraction of a few grains of powder will not make a big difference. But you must agree that the road to best accuracy is consistency. So if a person is shooting 79 grains of powder and taking efforts to reproduce that exact powder charge each and every time, it adds to the consistency factor and should in the long run increase the overall performance of the bullet. That is why some people weigh out their powder charges instead of using the volume measure.

I myself now shoot mainly my 50 cal.Knight Magnum Disc rifle and infact i can shoot same group size with with same P.O.I. out to 100 yards with
3= 50 grain 777 pellets as i can with 100 grain's of Black Mag 3 are 120 grain losse 777 and all the way down to 70 grains of loose 777 as long as i stay with a 250 grain polmer tip bullet.Why are there gun's so sensitive to a mere few grains of powder diffrence?
I just don't understand all these things above.So anyone with a answer are a great guess even,lol.please by all means chime in.Thanks.

Maybe you have a lucky rifle. Most of my rifles, inline or traditional, you start changing powder charges or projectiles, you will change your POI and your group size at 100 yards.

 

[alphaburnt]

Swamp Fox, as far as the gun being sensitive- I do not know. I just figure if I can make everything about the loading procedure from exact powder charge to swabbing after the shot as close to identical everytime it will yield better results- consistency. Now about the loading bullet combos on a T7 fouled barrell, I know for a fact that the Barnes 250 MZ and the TMZ bullet/sabot combo is nearly impossible for me to load without swabbing. Can I get it done?- yes. Can I get it done without exerting an extreme amount of pressure-using something to cover the end of my ramrod and pressing so hard that I can feel the aluminum ramrod bending AND being certain without looking at a witness mark on my ramrod that the combo is seated slightly compressing the powder charge- No. As I stated in my reply to your original question- I guess I am just being picky- but if you can see success your way, continue doing it. I will continue to try to make mine more accurate through eliminating inconsistency and experimenting.

 

[Underclocked]

Swampfox, given your understanding of the situation - what exactly would you recommend to a new shooter with regard to the subjects mentioned?

I would guess your reply:

a. Don't worry about the crud ring, it's no big deal.

b. Don't worry about the displaced bullets that may or may not happen as a result of using the hotter 209 primers.

c. Don't be so concerned about consistency - small errors are no big deal.

?? I'm not trying to be smart with you, but can you tell me how your advice would differ from the above?

I'll suggest to you there is another and even more serious effect of the crud ring and its fouling. Perhaps the effect is even easier to see with slip-fit conicals and that is how I first noticed it. The crud formed by T7 is HARD - harder than any I've encountered shooting any of the other subs or true black. Granted that it is easily dissolved by water, but (and since it's no big deal) we just won't bother with it. So the first crud deposits are left in the bore, mainly in the rifling grooves.

A slip-fit pretty much ignores the grooves on its way in - not so on it's way out. Obturation occurs almost immediately at ignition of the new charge, the conical now fills the grooves and meets deposits of almost concrete-like crud on the way out. Pressure goes up dramatically. Try it. In some rifles, the effect is startling and surely DANGEROUS.

And I observed this before most anyone knew anything about T7 or its crud. It seemed a very big deal to me. There is substantial evidence, by virtue of extensive testing, that short-seating a bullet is NOT a big deal at all and is pretty much a myth (if that is the only error). In spite of that evidence, I would never advise anyone to do anything but fully seat their projectile to a witness mark on their ramrod. And, in spite of knowing how easy it is to deal with the T7 crud, I would never suggest it is no big deal.

So far as weighing powder vs volumetric, anything that can be done to improve consistency of loads is a plus in the accuracy department. There may be little to be gained by weighing (and a much larger gain to be had by achieving consistent seating pressure) but it is still a variable under closer control. Some folks like to shoot groups for the sake of shooting groups. They find great reward in shooting the tightest groups possible. A 1" 100 yard group might make them smile while a 1/2" group would make their day. That is certainly a different mindset than the "minute of deer" folks have but still something that provides them (me too) some satisfaction.

I'm always reminded of "Preacher", an old shooter from the old CVA forums that was an absolutely great shot. He shot competitively and fractions of an inch were very important. He not only weighed his powder charge, he weighed EVERY component of his load. And he even admitted that weighing his caps/primers might be overkill - but it was hard to argue with a guy that often shot 1/4" groups.

So far as the primer or cap strength, I think the patched ramrod test is revealing of the "potential" for an effect. Put a tightly patched ramrod in your clean bore, then fire a primer. Take note of the movement of the rod. Do this several times with several different brands and you will notice significant differences in the travel of that ramrod. Now how that translates to the projectile sitting on a load of powder is something I'm also not clear about. There IS a time interval between primer ignition and powder ignition and, although the time interval is tiny, that could have an effect on load to load consistency. I sort of scratch my head on that one as well, but don't deny there is some plausibility.

 

[leapfrog]

All barrels have a sweet spot to them..Being a gun smith you should know this...And all barrels have the harmonics to them..This is the so called barrel whip....So with each load (powder-bullet) the barrel will do different things...If all is good at,say 110 grains of powder,but better at 110.6 grains..Then you have found the correct harmonics for this barrel and load...Which with you doing your part at the other end,you have the most accurate load for that combination.

So every time you use a different bullet you will have to find the right powder charge again..But this to will change as the barrel gets dirtier..I believe this is why you see some guys swabbing the barrel after every shot to give them the very best of accuracy..

 

[SwampFox]

Thanks guy's for all of yall's insight on these question's of mine.And yes while weighing a fast burnibg someless powder,make's a great deal of diffrence.It is truly not as critical with Black Powder are any of it's subtitute's.There are way to many varyables with them batch to batch ,Humidity,Barometric Pressure, and Chanceing in Sea Level Height.All of them have effects on any kind of powder and they effect Black Powder and all it's substitues worst than smokeless powder.There by changeing a few grains one way or the other a null point.Now the 777 Crud ring should not be causeing a shooter alot of these head ackes that i see peps talking about all over the net.One must use his own brain sometimes and do only things that make sense with any kind of gun and think about what you are doing and why you are doing it,plain and simple.
And just because you can make a ramrod move up in a bore with a primer,does not prove anything other than it move.It in no way means it can unseat a loaded bullet.First off with a powder charge in the gun and a bullet seated against the charge,the very moment the primer fires, a flame is embeded within this same percussion that made your ramrod move before and ignite's the powder charge.
Now i can see how anyone shooting conicals could have more trouble with the crud ring.But even then,they should be able to over come the problem and let it harm them to a point of not useing 777.
Ya i know alot of guy's want to fiddle and play with there gun's and loads.But it really is not rocket science useing a black powder gun and there should not be any need as treating it as such.Plain and good common sense should prevail all the time and every aspect of any kind of a gun all the time
.Thanks again guy's

 

[03mossy]

about the crud ring-for me up here in MN when the temps drop to the single digits it is phisically imposible to seat a second shot without swabbing inbetween shots. thats why i do it at all times, i have a routine that gets me good accuracy.

as far as a few grains differance- to me this is an issue of confidence and the level of comfort with your rifle. sure a few grains might not make a huge differance, but with loading the same amout and going to the range spending time doing so it is going to increase your confidence witch is the key to accuracy in my opinion.

 

[Moose1712]

Sorry but...Where did you find the black mag 3?

 

[SwampFox]

I have not bought any lately.Because of this Thunder Charge BrainStorm they have come up with.What i have left is 1 jug from a 3 jug order,back about some where around 2 years ago give are take .Dern shame it is ,i love that powder.Man is it ever a clean burning powder

Sorry but...Where did you find the black mag 3?

 

[Moose1712]

Sorry to hear that. I just read an article, the newest additiopn (to BP substitudes)is supposed to be Blackhorn 209 but its not to come out for another couple of months . Have you head anything on this powder?

 

[NDTerminator]

If Blackhorn 209 is half as good as the report I read indicates, it will be the best thing to come along for ML in a long time.

My local sporting goods/gun dealer (also a modern ML guy) expects his first shipment in March. I all ready have my share reserved!...

 

[Underclocked]

Does your dealer have a price on the powder?

 

[SwampFox]

This Blackhorn 209 might be just as good as they say it will be.But from what i understand, is that is has a Very High Flash Point and must be use as a 209 always powder.Now to some this might be just fine,But for my sidelocks it would be unuseable.I just Hope that the maker's of Black Mag3 come to there sense's and stop with all this Thunder Charge Crap.

 

[MLKeith]

The Thundercharge is the pet project of Giovanni who is the CEO of Magkor. In addition to that it was one way to get more distribution capability by teaming up with MDM and the only way to do that was to use their bullet on the T-Charge. I have personally made my opinion that the powder/bullet combination is a poor idea to the Magkor people but they are going ahead still. I just hope that the loose powder will be available soon and with better distribution than what it had before.

 

[NDTerminator]

This Blackhorn 209 might be just as good as they say it will be.But from what i understand, is that is has a Very High Flash Point and must be use as a 209 always powder.Now to some this might be just fine,But for my sidelocks it would be unuseable.I just Hope that the maker's of Black Mag3 come to there sense's and stop with all this Thunder Charge Crap.

My bad, I didn't realize you were talking about sidelocks. This is, after all, the Inline Forum!!!

UC, no price as of yet...