Accuracy troubles

[jsmuddydogs]

I decided to play around with my old TC New Englander 54 cal 1-48 twist rifle. I mostly shot Ball-ET's out of it 20 some years ago and as I remember the accuracy was good. Since I got back into muzzy hunting I have been shooting some fancy inline that might as well be a center fire rifle.

So I cast up some 220 grain round ball and 300 grain Lee REAL bullets but I can't get them to group worth a darn, were talking 8 plus inches for a group size at 100 yards and no real rime or reason between shots.

For the RB mine cast at 222 grains and .532", I tried .010 and .013 pillow ticking patches lubed with Bore Butter with 80 and 90 grains of RS Pyrodex. Am I driving them to hard? I do have some .015 and .018 patch material coming.

The REAL bullets cast at 302 grains and measure out at .54 on the top and mid driving band. They sure seem easy to load once I get them started. Bullets are lubed in the grooves with some BP lube I have had for ages. I tried shooting just the lubed bullet, bullet on a 20 gauge felt wad lubed with Bore Butter and bullet, felt plus a 20ga overshot card. Here again I shot both 80 and 90 grains of RS Pyrodex.

I just can't see or shoot the iron sights well enough anymore, back about 10 years ago I acquired the mount and base to be able to put a scope on the rifle so I decided I would mount up a scope for this load work up then eventually purchase a peep or fiber optic sight. I happened to have a 3-9 scope laying around which sure makes target work nice although its kind of a travesty to have a scope on this nice old traditional rifle.

Any tips or ideas you might have would be great.
Thanks Jim.

 

[451whitworth]

If you are having trouble using the sights at 100 yards, try 50 instead. That will help remove some possible sight picture error to give you a better idea what is going on.

 

[jsmuddydogs]

I put a 3-9 scope on it so I'm good. Still had issues at 50 with the iron sights.

 

[ported45]

Dad has a .54 Renegade. While we never tried roundball, we could never get MaxiHunters or REAL bullets to group worth a darn. Used the MaxiBall and he can poke holes in a pop can @ 100 yards one after the other.

 

[Idaholewis]

Does your New Englander have TC’s QLA Muzzle?

 

[jsmuddydogs]

Does your New Englander have TC’s QLA Muzzle?

No it doesn't. Rifle is an early 90's model?

Also I found your 2018 post about reworking the trigger on a New Englander. I took mine apart and polished all the bearing surfaces plus measured the tumbler like you showed in your post. Mine measured .567. I didn't measure trigger pull before the polish, forgot that part, but after the polish I'm getting a crisp 6.5 pounds of pull. I think I will attempted to take a little material off the top of the full cock notch next. I am a little nervous since I haven't been able to find a replacement online if I happen to mess it up. Lots of places list the part but none have it in stock.

 

[sdporter]

Dad has a .54 Renegade. While we never tried roundball, we could never get MaxiHunters or REAL bullets to group worth a darn. Used the MaxiBall and he can poke holes in a pop can @ 100 yards one after the other.

My 1:48 Renegade would not shoot the Maxi-Hunter’s either but, I think I was pushing them way too fast. I always shot 90 grains Pyrodex RS out of that gun. Full bore 250 grain bullet was just too short I think for how fast I was pushing them. They were going through the target sideways, the ones that hit the target anyway. I could hit a clay pigeon hung on a nail, every time at 75 yards. It shot the T/C 250 grain ez glide’s lights out though at 100 yards. Same powder charge.

 

[sdporter]

Look at a bullet twist stability calculator, you may just be running them too hard. Also check your nipple. My groups went from 6”+ to 1-1/2” at 100 yards as soon as I put my new breechplug with Treso nipple in my White. Also out of my .45 White, shooting a home cast .350 grain bullet I had to go down to 60 grains to get them to shoot it’s a 1:20 twist though.

 

[Renegadehunter]

Checking the nipple or replacing it is a good suggestion, it's amazing how much a worn nipple can effect groups.
The only conical I've ever tried in my .54 renegade is the 425 grain Hornady Great Plains Bullet (now discontinued), it shoots really well with 100 grains of 2f in mine.
I've read of many people not getting very good accuracy out of a 1:48 twist with Maxi-hunters, but most said that Maxi-balls shot well. Sorry I'm not much help with conicals.

I mainly shoot patched roundball (PRB). My renegade is very similar to your New Englander and it likes a pretty tight patch & RB combo, as well as very little lube on the patch. You mentioned that you tried a .010" patch (much to thin I think if anything like my renegade)...and a .013" pillow ticking patch? I've never seen pillow ticking that thin, is it the red striped stuff rather than the blue? I'm using blue striped pillow ticking patches, they measure .018" not compressed and I get .0155 compressed reading using calipers. These patches with a .530 RB require a very firm smack on the short starter to get them started and then I have to grab the ram rod about 8" above the muzzle several times to push it down and seat. This combo, along with very lightly lubing the patch is giving me my best groups. 75 grains is best in mine with 2f, but oddly it likes 80 grains if using 3f. I like to experiment and have tried all manner of different combos. Just type of lube and amount I can effect my groups by 4"! Best lubes I've found for good groups is mink oil or a Dutch Schultz style "dry" patch lubed with Castor oil/denatured alcohol (CODA). To apply the mink oil I only wipe the patch across a tin of Track of the Wolf's mink oil once with medium light pressure and then rub what little lube is on the patch out to the edges with my thumbs.
The CODA lube is a little different, but yields my best groups. This method is about being able to control exactly how much lube is applied to each and every patch. You can experiment with different ratios, most find that somewhere between a 5:1 ratio and an 8:1 ratio is best, with 7:1 being the winner a majority of the time. To make a batch of lube, for example at a 6:1 ratio, add 6 parts denatured alcohol and 1 part castor oil to a container. I'm talking about the health food store castor oil. Shake the heck out of it. The castor oil will mix with the alcohol (won't with water). After mixing, dip patches into it once and then set them on a screen to dry. The alcohol will all evaporate off in a couple of hours and just leave a dry feeling patch with a light lube of castor oil. You will want to swab between shots, the patches just won't soften the fouling on their own. A warning, this lube method will break down the patch material over time so don't make them too much in advance of shooting. I don't like to have them lubed up more than about 3 weeks before I shoot them.
This same method can be done with Ballistol and water, but I haven't tried it yet. I'm going to try it soon, just for the fun of it and to see if this combo shoots well and doesn't break down the patch material as quickly.
Oh, and contrary to what many experience, my rifle also will shoot the store bought .015" TC Natural lube patches pretty darn well...it is just a crap shoot as to whether you get fresh ones or ones that have been on the shelf for a long time. If they are old I find that they don't shoot worth beans, and I'd rather not deal with getting good batches and bad batches.
Recovering your shot patches can tell you a lot, if they are full of holes, torn, or have really bad fraying at the edges it is a good sign that the patch is too thin, not quite enough lube, or possibly a burr or rough spot in the bore that is cutting them. I find my best groups are when the shot patches almost look like they could be used again with only slight fraying around the edges.

 

[jsmuddydogs]

My patch measurements are compressed measurements, the .013 ticking is blue strip about 20 years old from a fabric store. I do have some .015 and .018 ticking coming to try. I have also ordered a new nipple.

My shot patches look good enough to load again, hardly any black on them and just a little rough around the edges where the threads are coming apart.

If the patch material shows up I'll hit the range Saturday with more patches to try, new nipple, trigger at 5 1/4 pounds after trigger job and new No. 11 caps. Got to thinking the caps I'm shooting are CCI No 11 mag caps that are probably 20 years old, not sure if it makes much difference but I have some less then 5 year old CCI, Rem and some foreign caps I'll try.

 

[Dave951]

With everybody going on about the gun, what about the scope you're using? If it's a cheap scope, I'd start looking there. You should also make sure the base is secure to the gun. If nothing else other than this has been done to this rifle, I'd put my bet on something involving the scope.

Quicky box test, clamp rilfe down to a stable, immovable object. Doesn't take any ammo, just set up about 30ft from a wall. Put up several large sheets of poster board on the wall. Dial up 20 clicks, mark the point on the poster board, dial right 20, mark, dial down 20, mark point, dial left 20 and it "should" be a the first mark. If not, you have a scope issue. To be completely sure, repeat in the opposite direction.

 

[jsmuddydogs]

Scope is just a Vortex Crossfire II but I did just take it off a 308 that was shooting clover leaf groups at 100 yards. All base, mount and ring screws have been torqued. Not saying its not the scope but it's unlikely. I will go back through the mounting as a double check just in case.

 

[Idaholewis]

Scope is just a Vortex Crossfire II but I did just take it off a 308 that was shooting clover leaf groups at 100 yards. All base, mount and ring screws have been torqued. Not saying its not the scope but it's unlikely. I will go back through the mounting as a double check just in case.

With a Vortex Scope it’s VERY Likely that it Failed! I would definitely try another Scope just to see?

I bought a Vortex Viper GEN 2 PST 5-25X50 FFP, It Only lasted a few outings on my .45 Cal Knight Mountaineer and it BROKE, It Wouldn’t Hold Zero anymore? And this wasn’t a Cheap Scope either, They sell for 800-1,000 Bucks! The Vortex Crossfires are their Lowest end Scopes, Made in China. I would DEFINITELY Try another Scope