Reason I ask is I have been having some ignition issues while hunting here in MI during the firearms season. I had one hangfire and one complete failure to fire. The failure to fire was after hunting all day in a snow/sleet storm so I thought maybe I had drawn moisture to the powder but after I pulled the breech the powder looks fine. I am seriously considering going back to 777 for the rest of the season until I have time to figure out whats going on here.
Any cold weather troubles with BH209?
- Thread starter Critter
- Start date
Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:
What Primers are you using? I have not had any issues with the Federal 209As down to 30 degrees. I hunted Saturday in the pouring down rain for 10 hours and it fired just fine. The temperature was in the mid 50s.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,531
- Reaction score
- 825
what gun are you using?
My Disc Ext went off just fine twice on 11-15, using 120 gr BH209, Knight PBT(Barnes TMZ), Federal 209A primer in the Non-FPJ conversion. I am a little further NORTH of you. :lol: Hope it wasn't a big wallhanger you were having problems with?
What primer and breech plug are you using? I knew this year would be a learning curve for all us using BH209 in the colder climates, that is why I am using the Fed 209A primer. If that primer will not set it off, nothing else will either short of a blow torch.
Thanks for your input.
What primer and breech plug are you using? I knew this year would be a learning curve for all us using BH209 in the colder climates, that is why I am using the Fed 209A primer. If that primer will not set it off, nothing else will either short of a blow torch.
Thanks for your input.
Knight Disc Elite, FPJ standard concave plug. I had the gun shooting just fine at the range no matter what the temp. I had two hangfires to begin with using it until I figured that it liked a lot of bullet seating pressure. I'm using Win 209s. Maybe I need to try the Federals.
I tried to fire the load three times. I had to reseat the projectile after every primer and it still wouldn't fire.
Thankfully I was just shooting the load out of the gun to clean it instead of a wallhanger.
I tried to fire the load three times. I had to reseat the projectile after every primer and it still wouldn't fire.
Thankfully I was just shooting the load out of the gun to clean it instead of a wallhanger.
Critter,
Have you been cleaning out the flame channel all the way down to the flash hole with 1/8" drill bit? I just turn it by hand, you wouldn't believe the crud left in there from the W209 primers, or any of the 209 primers for that matter. The first time I cleaned mine after 36 shots of BH209 and Win W209 primers, the whole flame channel was filled in except for a pinhole going down through the middle. I can't believe it was still going off. A guy really needs an extended 1/8" drill bit for the extedned range sessions, that way you can just pull the bolt and ream the carbon out without having to pull the plug.
Have you been cleaning out the flame channel all the way down to the flash hole with 1/8" drill bit? I just turn it by hand, you wouldn't believe the crud left in there from the W209 primers, or any of the 209 primers for that matter. The first time I cleaned mine after 36 shots of BH209 and Win W209 primers, the whole flame channel was filled in except for a pinhole going down through the middle. I can't believe it was still going off. A guy really needs an extended 1/8" drill bit for the extedned range sessions, that way you can just pull the bolt and ream the carbon out without having to pull the plug.
I think Busta is right on about keeping the flame channel clean in your breech plug. I use an 1/8" drill bit for my Omega plug and it is amazingly dirty after 20+ shots with BH209--worse than my Savage smokeless plug, and much worse than the Omega with 777.
I have not had any issues with the cold and BH209 yet, but have not had much of a test yet either. In PA's October ML doe season I hunted Bradford Co. (up by the NY border). I loaded my Omega Wednesday afternoon and left it outside on the porch over night Wed. and Thursday without emptying each day and reloading. Thursday night it got down to the high 20's. Friday evening it went off perfectly with a Win 209 and I killed a nice doe at 90 yards. FWIW I shoot 100 grns of BH209, a Harvester SB, a 250 grn SST and a Win 209. I do load with a good amount of seating pressure.
I am curious about BH209 in real cold weather though. I head to Iowa in a couple weeks and it can be very cold there by the first week of December.
I have not had any issues with the cold and BH209 yet, but have not had much of a test yet either. In PA's October ML doe season I hunted Bradford Co. (up by the NY border). I loaded my Omega Wednesday afternoon and left it outside on the porch over night Wed. and Thursday without emptying each day and reloading. Thursday night it got down to the high 20's. Friday evening it went off perfectly with a Win 209 and I killed a nice doe at 90 yards. FWIW I shoot 100 grns of BH209, a Harvester SB, a 250 grn SST and a Win 209. I do load with a good amount of seating pressure.
I am curious about BH209 in real cold weather though. I head to Iowa in a couple weeks and it can be very cold there by the first week of December.
zfishingfool
Member
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2006
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
I HAD this problem also in my omega , win primers 100gr of 209 , I WAS shooting at a wall hanger, i'm going back to blackmag3, scorpion 260 gr bullets what i was shooting
I do keep the plug cleaned out. It's only been 4 or 5 shots now since I did it last but maybe it needs to be done again. I looked at it 2 shots ago and it looked fine. I am going to shoot it again today at the gravel pit to see if it will function ok. If not I will clean the plug and try again. I am really hoping this is not a powder problem.
plug
critter, saok that plug in Hopes for a while then pipe cleaner the h_-_ l out of it. I haven't tried the 1/8 inch drill bit yet. II use those traditions pipe cleaners as they have some kind of bristle too them that enhances the cleaning. Let that soak a while, then clean.
critter, saok that plug in Hopes for a while then pipe cleaner the h_-_ l out of it. I haven't tried the 1/8 inch drill bit yet. II use those traditions pipe cleaners as they have some kind of bristle too them that enhances the cleaning. Let that soak a while, then clean.
Is the sabot possibly coming loose off the powder during the hunt? I just know the only time I've had ignition problems was before I started leaning on the rod. I use the Knight DISC Elite(n-FPJ) with 200gr SWs and 110gr BH209 sparked by Fed 209As. Also, I went from CCI to the Fed 209As and no problems at all after the combination of those two changes. The only thing I do for weather protection is the old electrical tape on the muzzle thing.
I'm hunting this whole week in 30 deg so I'm hoping I don't discover any kind of problems myself. Long time between buck sightings so any issues would really suck. My plan B is the slug gun in the back seat. :lol:
I'm hunting this whole week in 30 deg so I'm hoping I don't discover any kind of problems myself. Long time between buck sightings so any issues would really suck. My plan B is the slug gun in the back seat. :lol:
Ok just put 6 shots in the gravel pile. Cleaned the breech plug completely including the 1/8" drill bit and torch tip cleaners in the flashhole. Made sure the bore was completely dry before loading. 5 hangfires, one went off ok. So looks like it's back to square one. I thought maybe it was the powder in my speedloaders that was causing the problem but shots fresh from the jar hesitated too. I guess I'll pick up some Fed 209A primers to try. I'm back to hunting friday so something has to get figured out soon. I haven't tried the 200 Shockwave that that gun liked so much yet, maybe it will fit tighter and cause less problems.
I should also add that I kept the powder, bullets, gun, primers, all outside to simulate hunting conditions.
I should also add that I kept the powder, bullets, gun, primers, all outside to simulate hunting conditions.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2005
- Messages
- 4,905
- Reaction score
- 477
Critter,
+1 on what Busta said. I also have a Disc Elite. I got some of the Win 209 primers and they did not work well in mine at all and I have both plugs. I only shot about 4 or 5 shots with the Win primer and had only one go off ok, the rest were hang fires that varied from slight to very bad with the FPJ plug. Not much better with the NFPJ plug so I quit using them. I found that the Fed 209 gave me the best results. Only hang fires I have had when using the Fed 209A was when the breach plug was carboned up. After cleaning it with the 1/8" drill but (by hand) and a torch tip cleaner all was well again. I don't go past 20 shots without cleaning. At first I did not care much for the NFPJ plug, but now I sort of like it a little better. It does produce less blowback than the FPJ plug. The only problem I have with it is that I need to remove the insert on the end of the bolt and clean it a little more often than the plug. It will get a hard carbon layer in the recess for the primer cup flange and cause the spent primer to hang up and not fall out easily. I would say that as long as your plugs fire channel is clear all you need is a switch to the Fed primer. CCI 209 Mag is also an option, but I think it caused me to have some unexplained fliers occasionally so I am planning to stick with the Fed209a. I hope to be out doing final load testing and sight in this weekend. It is supposed to only be up to about 40* on Saturday. I want to try this rifle on 12/01 in the southeastern Ohio woods this year. I will have my MK95 with me in case something goes amiss.
ShawnT
+1 on what Busta said. I also have a Disc Elite. I got some of the Win 209 primers and they did not work well in mine at all and I have both plugs. I only shot about 4 or 5 shots with the Win primer and had only one go off ok, the rest were hang fires that varied from slight to very bad with the FPJ plug. Not much better with the NFPJ plug so I quit using them. I found that the Fed 209 gave me the best results. Only hang fires I have had when using the Fed 209A was when the breach plug was carboned up. After cleaning it with the 1/8" drill but (by hand) and a torch tip cleaner all was well again. I don't go past 20 shots without cleaning. At first I did not care much for the NFPJ plug, but now I sort of like it a little better. It does produce less blowback than the FPJ plug. The only problem I have with it is that I need to remove the insert on the end of the bolt and clean it a little more often than the plug. It will get a hard carbon layer in the recess for the primer cup flange and cause the spent primer to hang up and not fall out easily. I would say that as long as your plugs fire channel is clear all you need is a switch to the Fed primer. CCI 209 Mag is also an option, but I think it caused me to have some unexplained fliers occasionally so I am planning to stick with the Fed209a. I hope to be out doing final load testing and sight in this weekend. It is supposed to only be up to about 40* on Saturday. I want to try this rifle on 12/01 in the southeastern Ohio woods this year. I will have my MK95 with me in case something goes amiss.
ShawnT
Any possiblity that the FPJs are getting cold and just brittle enough that they aren't providing the same seal as they did in warm weather? Might be a good test to try a couple of warm ones along with cold ones to see if there is any difference.
I sent the following question to Western Powders on Buckhorn 209 and received the following reply from Don:
Galen,
It's always good to hear from someone associated with the Modern Muzzleloader forum. I believe this is the most knowledgeable group of shooters out there.
Although BH209 is a new product, it has been in development for many years. During the development stages it was tested in very cold conditions, down to -40 degrees Fahrenheit. All indications are that BH209 will perform very well in cold conditions. Quite frankly, you can't get me to go hunting at 40 below. Non the less, the testing was done.
The most common reason for a hang fire or delay fire is a fouled breech plug. I am certain you are aware that you need to clean the fire channel, this is the area from the primer pocket to the flash hole, with an appropriate size drill bit. This area needs to stay as close to new as possible. A perfectly cylindrical fire channel promotes good gas flow, this is a must for reliable ignition. Check with Busta, I believe he has had several posts on this very subject.
As you have noticed, the brand of primer can also effect ignition. There are three very important characteristics that primers provide for ignition. Pressure, heat and hot particulates. Our tests have shown that the CCI 209M primers provide the most pressure and particulates. These primers will foul the fire channel faster than Federal 209A or Winchester W209. The Federal had the second highest pressure of the primers tested and less fouling than the CCI 209M but more fouling than the W209.
note - This testing was done in laboratory conditions, your results may vary. Also remember that primers can change from lot to lot as well.
Another point worth mentioning is breech plug design. Ideally, we like to see the primer sealed. A system that provides a good primer seal has NO blow back. This assures that all the primer energy is directed into the powder where it is supposed to go. A good test is to fire a primer, just the primer. If you have a good seal you will not see any black on the walls of the primer. The primer should look almost as clean as it was before you fired it. Refer to the attached picture. These are both Federal 209A primers. The one on the left is a less than ideal system, the one on the right is a very reliable system. The point is that a very good primer with more than adequate strength has actually been reduced in energy by the design of the breech plug. Not to mention that I hate cleaning that gun because of all the blow back that is obviously not necessary!
Back to your original question, the testing has been done and BH209 does perform well in the cold. The important thing to remember is to keep your breech plug clean. Always start your range session or hunt with a clean breech plug.
We appreciate the honesty and integrity of the people using the Modern Muzzleloader forum. Please keep us posted on these issues. Our goal is to provide the best product and service in the industry.
Best regards,
Don Luhr
Western Powders
From: Galen Christopher [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Blackhorn 209
Can you tell me if Blackhorn 209 has been tested extensively at temperatures in the teens and twentys (F degrees)? I'm currently on my 5th can and have not had any ignition problems, but all shooting has been done above freezing. A few guys (Modern Muzzleloader Forum) have recently had hangfires or failure to ignite at all in temperatures below freezing! Most of us are using Federal 209A primers (hottest) and one member even had a hangfire with this primer; although most were with Win. and CCI 209 primers. If you have any information that can help, I will share it on the Forum. Obviously, a good tight sabot fit with substantial pressure is understood. No one wants to believe its the powder, as we are ALL very impressed with it and will use nothing else!
Thanks,
Galen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen,
It's always good to hear from someone associated with the Modern Muzzleloader forum. I believe this is the most knowledgeable group of shooters out there.
Although BH209 is a new product, it has been in development for many years. During the development stages it was tested in very cold conditions, down to -40 degrees Fahrenheit. All indications are that BH209 will perform very well in cold conditions. Quite frankly, you can't get me to go hunting at 40 below. Non the less, the testing was done.
The most common reason for a hang fire or delay fire is a fouled breech plug. I am certain you are aware that you need to clean the fire channel, this is the area from the primer pocket to the flash hole, with an appropriate size drill bit. This area needs to stay as close to new as possible. A perfectly cylindrical fire channel promotes good gas flow, this is a must for reliable ignition. Check with Busta, I believe he has had several posts on this very subject.
As you have noticed, the brand of primer can also effect ignition. There are three very important characteristics that primers provide for ignition. Pressure, heat and hot particulates. Our tests have shown that the CCI 209M primers provide the most pressure and particulates. These primers will foul the fire channel faster than Federal 209A or Winchester W209. The Federal had the second highest pressure of the primers tested and less fouling than the CCI 209M but more fouling than the W209.
note - This testing was done in laboratory conditions, your results may vary. Also remember that primers can change from lot to lot as well.
Another point worth mentioning is breech plug design. Ideally, we like to see the primer sealed. A system that provides a good primer seal has NO blow back. This assures that all the primer energy is directed into the powder where it is supposed to go. A good test is to fire a primer, just the primer. If you have a good seal you will not see any black on the walls of the primer. The primer should look almost as clean as it was before you fired it. Refer to the attached picture. These are both Federal 209A primers. The one on the left is a less than ideal system, the one on the right is a very reliable system. The point is that a very good primer with more than adequate strength has actually been reduced in energy by the design of the breech plug. Not to mention that I hate cleaning that gun because of all the blow back that is obviously not necessary!
Back to your original question, the testing has been done and BH209 does perform well in the cold. The important thing to remember is to keep your breech plug clean. Always start your range session or hunt with a clean breech plug.
We appreciate the honesty and integrity of the people using the Modern Muzzleloader forum. Please keep us posted on these issues. Our goal is to provide the best product and service in the industry.
Best regards,
Don Luhr
Western Powders
From: Galen Christopher [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Blackhorn 209
Can you tell me if Blackhorn 209 has been tested extensively at temperatures in the teens and twentys (F degrees)? I'm currently on my 5th can and have not had any ignition problems, but all shooting has been done above freezing. A few guys (Modern Muzzleloader Forum) have recently had hangfires or failure to ignite at all in temperatures below freezing! Most of us are using Federal 209A primers (hottest) and one member even had a hangfire with this primer; although most were with Win. and CCI 209 primers. If you have any information that can help, I will share it on the Forum. Obviously, a good tight sabot fit with substantial pressure is understood. No one wants to believe its the powder, as we are ALL very impressed with it and will use nothing else!
Thanks,
Galen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 3,500
- Reaction score
- 3
I prefer real world testing myself.
