BH209 Bullet move

[52Bore]

We've been discussing a phenomenon (under a different topic on the SML section) that I can't comprehend. It got a little off track so I am posting the question here. A local man I spoke with lost his hand to an accident a few weeks ago. His fault, but the basis of what I can't understand is when he stated 'shot at a deer and bullet went 20' out the barrel'. I told him I have personally witnessed this same thing from a few shooters.
Leads to the question: How can a primer ignite and move the bullet out the bore without igniting the powder?


So, I had a piece of 45 and 50 cal barrels. I took my 100gr B&M measurer and poured 100gr of each in the barrel pieces. Moved a tight wad up so the powder was at the top, pored powder back in can and then measured the depth for both in each.
The in a 50 a 100gr Vol powder column is 2.07" long, 45 is 2.54"
From the above sketch above the flame/pressure, etc. from a 209 primer is either pushing or traveling thru 2-2.5" of powder and still not igniting.

 

[52Bore]

I know the immediate answer is the bullet was too loose. However, these guys who had them POP out the end of the barrel have been shooting the same bullet, same sabot, primer for who knows how long - like many of you with no issues.
So, another question: are these loads so close to ignition/no ignition that they are NOT tight enough? If so, those of you who had this phenomenon happen to - how tight are your loads or can you imagine pushing a tighter bullet down?
Just trying to understand how this phenomenon happens.
Thanks

 

[rangerod]

I wouldn't think a primer on its own could push a bullet out of a barrel let alone twenty feet beyond. Maybe powder only partially burned? Powder was old and weak? Had moisture in it? If the bullet isn't properly seated it imo could happen. But not just from the primer.

 

[a1smokepole]

I do no back when BH first came out using a knight with the old breech plug with a disc and not getting the powder to light up the bullet would move off the powder around 8in :huh?: down the bore and had to reset the bullet every time the powder did not light. but after using the new breech plug with the vent and bare primer I've never had one not light up so at this point what's going on powder lighting up first or bullet moving first ? I have called BH about this a long time ago and they said not with there powder and a mag primer and with the wright breech plug.

 

[a1smokepole]

I wouldn't think a primer on its own could push a bullet out of a barrel let alone twenty feet beyond. Maybe powder only partially burned? Powder was old and weak? Had moisture in it? If the bullet isn't properly seated it imo could happen. But not just from the primer.

I will add to this oil in bore, grease in plug, bore cleaner in bore or plug ,clogged flame channel in plug.

 

[Upper Hand]

When I was new to muzzleloading I used to drown my rifle with Zep 45 oil to prevent rusting while stored. On one outing I loaded the rifle without popping off a couple primers to clear grease / oil from the breech plug like I usually did. When I pulled the trigger the primer went pop but the gun didn't fire. Without giving it much thought I installed a new primer and fired, the bullet fell out of the end of the barrel and two burning 50 grain pellets shot out like stars from a Roman candle. All I can think is that the first primer advanced the bullet considerably but oil / grease prevented ignition. This was with a "muzzleloader" primer, I don't doubt that a hotter standard primer could eject a bullet, the real question as I see it is why didn't the powder ignite on the original shot. He was using 5744 right? It's supposed to be fairly easy to ignite and temperature insensitive.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Back in the day I've seen it happen with light weight bullets, poor fitting sabots and moisture involved. I've seen primers send a pellet that far and burning with no bullet though with just a primer.
I've shot BH since I could get my hands on it and never had an issue or heard of something this extreme. Maybe the propellant was wet?

I've always seated the bullet on BH very hard, averaging 106fpf. It ignites.

 

[rangerod]

I also seat the bullet with a good solid push using black horn. You can do so with bh because it doesn't crush. If a primer could push a bullet out of a barrel and twenty feet beyond that's some kind of a loose fit. If the fit was loose enough the bullet could move off the charge before the trigger was even pulled.

 

[Dooger]

I've seen it first hand with a buddy who is no green horn...and concluded that the shooter swabbed the bore with a Windex solution and never swabbed it out afterwards. The target was at 25 yards and the bullet struck 8-10" low. It was just a "thud" with no recoil. The sabot was stuck in the cardboard backing that the paper target was stapled to. I helped him clean the bore and made sure everything was dry. It then shot great.

The sabot was tight. The bore was .501 and he was using green MMP sabots (for .429-.430 bullets) with 240 gr. XTP's (.430). Everything was good to go.

Conclusion: Wet powder.

 

[rangerod]

Dooger was there any powder burn or just ignition of the primer?

 

[Dooger]

There was at least some powder burn. No cloud of smoke out the barrel though. When we pulled the breech plug and looked down the barrel, there was some unburned powder in it. We tipped the barrel this way and that way while we were disassembling it though, so it was the entire length of the barrel. If I would have been thinking about it more, I would have been more careful as to see if it was somewhat compressed and such...or poured as much of it out carefully and re-measured it.

But, I'm sure we pointed the barrel towards the ground and I will say powder didn't just pour out of the muzzle. Remember that the lands and grooves were wet too though.

That said, after thinking about it, I would have expected about 30-50% of the powder was burned. There's no way to say now though. It was a 100 grain (volume) load. So, in my mind, it should have been equivalent to a +/- 50 gr load if we're going off the top end, but it wasn't. I'm guessing the remaining burned powder may have been too "wet" to create much pressure.

I hope that reads well...hard to put into words.

 

[52Bore]

Dooger it reads fine.

FYI when we were getting sidetracked on the other post about this occurring with BH209, that made me put it here. Hac, Al-53 and bestill all posted that they've had this occur. Bestill was sabotless which might make since if he was adjusting diameter/size/fit. Al-53 had it happen 2x after 25 shots, the guys I've witnessed - it was not their first shot either.

 

[Hac]

I have a question not to get side tracked, it has happened to me twice but only in my Knights both being disc extreme one in .50 and the other .45, both using BH209 but I have shot more rounds out of the omega's total of three and two optima V2 and only experience it in the Knights so my question is, has this happened in any other ML type besides the bolt type ML?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Western has always recommended and written, that BH should be used with a tight fitting sabot and bullet. They've recommended seating the sabot/bullet with pressure on the propellant. http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/

I've shot many thousands of rounds of BH and have never had it not ignite properly. The only issue I've experienced, is a loss of tight grouping when on exception, the flash channel started to carbon. That was an easy fix by just using a bit by and removing the carbon buildup, then the groups would tighten right back up. However I'd say I pretty much followed Western's recommendations, using a sabot/bullet combination that required an average of 52fpf for loading the bullet/sabot and an average of 106fpf when seating.

 

[WV Hunter]

I have not had this happen to me, but I also am relatively new to BH209 so not a ton of shots yet. I do seat all my loads about the same, regardless of powder. Stiff but not standing on it. Most of my bullets have a somewhat tight fit also, again... snug but not hammering it down the bore.

Has anyone ever loaded a bullet/sabot without powder and shot a 209 to see if it will move it? :huh?:

 

[rangerod]

I seat my bullets much the same as you wv. The nice thing about bh is it doesn't crush no matter how much loading pressure you use. The issue being discussed I believe could happen with any gun under the right circumstances. I can't see how just the primer could move a bullet out the end of a barrel. The only thing I can think of is an unbelievably loose fit. A fit so loose you wouldn't try it.

 

[Al-53]

Has anyone ever loaded a bullet/sabot without powder and shot a 209 to see if it will move it? :huh?:

I seen a video where a guy places a fiberglass rod in a barrel of a ML and fired a primer to see how far it moved up the barrel..he was testing the power of different primers...and they moved up more than you would think...they varied from 10 to 20 inches...I believe the CCI-m and the federals moved them the most...so I would imagine they would move a bullet sabot combo..but how far i am not sure...

any time you get a poof shot or squib ..you have to check barrel to insure its empty...

 

[rangerod]

How right you are about checking the barrel after something doesn't quite go right. Always better safe than sorry. A few times in the past I've had hang fires and after took out breach plug and thoroughly cleaned the barrel. From what I could tell problem was bullet/sabot not properly seated. I also saw video of Russell Lynch testing primers in the way you describe. Strongest primer moved rod about ten inches.

 

[52Bore]

Western has always recommended and written, that BH should be used with a tight fitting sabot and bullet. They've recommended seating the sabot/bullet with pressure on the propellant. http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/
However I'd say I pretty much followed Western's recommendations, using a sabot/bullet combination that required an average of 52fpf for loading the bullet/sabot and an average of 106fpf when seating.

Encore:
Thanks for the link, interesting. I didn't see anywhere that they posted a actual numeric spec. Did they or is this what you've established?

I wonder if they created these ignition guidelines AFTER their product came out?
They seem to deflect a lot toward the manufactures flaws for reasons of non-ignition. Toward the end of reading, I thought: "why don't they just make it where is ignites easy"?
The first sentence in #2 surprised me: They don't recommend any of the 209 primers designated for ML.
The first sentence in #5 might say it all about the powder.

I still would like to know how these bullets are exiting just a few feet out barrels...

 

[52Bore]

Guess I answered my own question about the timing of when they created the ignition guidelines in their 1st paragraph after re-reading.