Bull Barreled Smokeless .45 Opinions

Discussion in 'Smokeless Alternative Muzzleloading' started by Ridgeviewer, Feb 17, 2007.

  1. Feb 17, 2007 #1

    Ridgeviewer

    Ridgeviewer

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    Figuring the heat disapating advantages of a Bull Barrel are a moot point when discussing a Custom Smokeless Muzzleloader.
    Does anyone feel the lesser barrel vibration could equal better accuracy at higher velocities?
    Twist being specifically appropriate to Sabot or Conical.
     
  2. Feb 17, 2007 #2

    jims

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    In my opinion for whatever that is worth I feel a bull barrel has the potential for better consistent accuracy than a lighter, whippier barrel. One issue of course can you stand the extra weight if hunting. It is not too much of a problem in a stand but hill hunting can be another matter.
    One cannot exactly compare a ML to the centerfires but the extra long range specific built rigs ofter have pretty heavy iron up front.
     
  3. Feb 17, 2007 #3

    Ridgeviewer

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    Jim, It's a great thing to be able to use an awesome site like this to ask guys with similar interests for opinions. I thank you for your reply.

    We seem to be thinking along the same lines. My intention is to use an Encore barrel in .450 marlin to build a smokeless 45. Being the twist will be 1 in 20 it will be a dedicated sabotless barrel. That being the case, I'm thinking I'd do well going with the bull barrel, muzzle brake, and pro hunter flex tect stock to tame things a bit.

    Basically, I'm trying to build a rifle that will flat out anchor big farmland bucks from my tree stands.
    I'll have SMI build a lighter .45 barrel for sabots, southern ohio, and hills... :wink:
     
  4. Feb 17, 2007 #4

    big6x6

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    Currently, the thinking is that a 22 inch heavy contour barrel is THE gold standard for centerfire rifles when accuracy is the only consideration. I can't see why that wouldn't cross over to muzzleloaders.
     
  5. Feb 17, 2007 #5

    jims

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    To Ridgeviewer: What part of Ohio are you from, if there are ridges it cannot be the flatlands where I live? A point to mention, some have said that sabots are disrupted by muzzlebrakes and accuracy is compromised. I do not know that from any actual experience but I have heard it mentioned a number of times. Something you might want to check with someone who actually has a muzzlebrake.
     
  6. Feb 17, 2007 #6

    jims

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    To Ridgeviewer: I got in too much of a hurry. You were building a sabotless .45 so I would think the muzzlebrake would not cause any difference than in a centerfire rifle so apparently that will not be a problem. Good hunting and keep us posted on the progress with your rifle.
     
  7. Feb 17, 2007 #7

    Ridgeviewer

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    Big 6, You make a very valid point...22" would be a sweet length on my encore! I have a 21" .17 Rem bull barrel on my encore and it shoots & handles great. In thinking more about what you mention, the reloading data for the .450 marlin loads I plan to mirror were derrived in a 22" barrel. You sure have me rethinking my barrel length!



    Jim, I'm in Pickaway Co. The scrren name "Ridgeviewer" is somewhat 3 parts. I have a splash of Injun in me. I do actually live on a ridge, and view one across the valley. Mostly though it pertains to my business, Ridgeview Homes... :wink:
    I have read what you have seen about brakes and sabots many time as well. I'll never use a sabot in the 450 marlin convert barrel. With a 1 in 20 twist I doubt a sabot would have a chance at the velocity I want to move a 250 - 275 grain BE.
     
  8. Feb 17, 2007 #8

    Ridgeviewer

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    Jim, LOL we were typing, (more like pecking in my case) at the same time.
    We'll put that issue to bed...... :lol: :wink:
     
  9. Feb 19, 2007 #9

    RBinAR

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    Exactly what is the most accurate barrel is a good point of discussion. A good barrel is a good barrel, it does not matter if it's to shoot a center fire or a muzzle loader.

    One of the things I've found to be important is to have a consistant land dimension. With a muzzle loader sabot and bullet fit have a lot to do with the ignition sequence. Without proper ignition you won't have accuracy so attention to this detail is equal or greater importance as barrle length or stiffness.

    I've found that in a 45 caliber barrel that 25" is not too long to have considerable accuracy. In fact the accuracy is good enough that I wouldn't want to give up the extra 150fps for a 3" shorter barrel.

    If I were going to design a target rifle I'd go round bull the whole distance but in a sporter the weight is seldom worth the accuracy gained. I don't find hunters who are looking for a rifle that tops 10 pounds in weight.
     
  10. Feb 19, 2007 #10

    SW

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    I'm not so sure that you would out velocity the sabot. Some of us have obtained good accuracy at >2800'/sec with 200SSTs in our 45s. I personally shot duplex loads that obtained 2720'/sec with 250SST with great accuracy well before the sabots available today - these were short MMPs of 3-4 years ago, much weaker than the current HPH series. The load was too temp sens though - it was the load many shot before the commonly used 14/61 load. I'm quite certain that you could use a slow enough powder to use 80-100 gs or even less that could get you 2800+'/sec with those bullets out of either a 45 or 50(saboted). The recoil would be unpleasant to me. The 200SST has been shot by others(not me) to well beyond 2800'/sec out of a 22 twist barrel with good accuracy. The fast twist rate didn't turn out to be the barrier some of feared at first.
     
  11. Feb 19, 2007 #11

    savagebrother

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    hey ridgeviewer,
    well you have gotten some good answers here, the thing you have to remember is that you need a little longer barrel to achieve higher velocities witha given powder and bullet or bullet/sabot. because of bullet -bullet sabot jump in the muzzleloader barrel we have to compensate for this. if your looking for medium velocity loads with great accuracy 24" or 25" barrels with do. you can go alot faster though with a longer barrel and slower powder, the difference is you need more powder to do it.
    sb
     
  12. Feb 19, 2007 #12

    Ridgeviewer

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    RB Writes..
    Basically, I want to stay at or around 2600-2700 FPS with a 250-275 gr BE. I was looking at some Ruger 45/70 reloading data that shows some really hot stuff. But some really high pressures as well...
    I want to keep my pressure about 42,000 - 43,000.

    Guys, I can't begin to Thank ALL of you enough. I feel that with your guys suggestions, and opinions this rifle will turn out really sweet!
     
  13. Feb 19, 2007 #13

    savagebrother

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    thats what i call her-sweetness
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Feb 19, 2007 #14

    Ridgeviewer

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    SavageBrother,
    WOW! To say I am jealous would be the understatement of the year!
    I've always loved the looks of the #1.
    Any chance you have pics of the breech to show? I'd love to see how your conversion was accomplished.
     
  15. Feb 19, 2007 #15

    savagebrother

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    i have some at home and will post later this evening for you.
    sb
     
  16. Feb 21, 2007 #16

    schoolmaster

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    I had SMI put a 28 twist 45 barrel on a 20 ga. ultra slug action and had matched the same length and contour of the slug barrel. With a .45 hole in it, it is a bull barrel. I noticed that it took longer to heat up than my 50 cal. barrels and sat very steady on a rest. I have only shot one load so far and it went just over an inch at 100 yards. I believe the potential is there for some much tighter groups when I have time to shoot again.
     
  17. Feb 21, 2007 #17

    RBinAR

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    Yes that's about right but it would be a 23 1/2" barrel in my case becasue the rifles I make have a breech plug 1 1/2" long.

    The amount taken up by the powder and bullet is normal dead space as the same amount of barrel (or more) is often taken up by the case. That means the useful length is about the same as a 24" center fire barre.l
     
  18. Feb 21, 2007 #18

    RBinAR

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    Have you any particular loads you like in your 45? Are you looking for a few?

    45 shooting makes it fairly easy to get to speed. There are many powders that will work well in the 55 to 70 grain load levels.
     
  19. Feb 21, 2007 #19

    schoolmaster

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    RB I shot 53 grains of IMR-4198, 200 grain HXTP, CCI 209m primer, Harvestor sabot, and 1 Wonder Wad. Just shot enough to sight the rifle 2 inches high at 100 yards. I know you have a wealth of knowledge with all the testing you have done. How about listing your favorite three loads for both the 50 and the 45? Or better yet your favorite three duplex and single powder loads for these two calibers. Many of us smokeless shooters like accuracy first, then accuracy with speed, then accuracy with speed and manageable recoil. You have loads you have developed that do all that. Some of them you must favor over the others. I am not asking in order to debate with you. I just want to know what you like best. If you like and use the loads than I know I will like them also. Then I can introduce them to my rifle and see if it likes them as well.
     
  20. Jan 13, 2019 #20

    alternate

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    A heavy barrel not only shoots well due to less harmonics but the weight of the gun helps make long shots easier. The downside of course is carrying that monster over hill and dale. I built a smokeless ML using a Savage 111 action and a McGowan .458 barrel in 1x 18 twist. It will shoot 2 inches @ 200yds but after carrying it a few days into hunting season my right wrist gets really sore. My left hand is compromised so I can't switch back & forth. I'm just starting a new build based on a Handi that will be lighter and shorter. I know it won't shoot as good as the behemoth but it should carry well.
     

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