Bullet tumbling???

[COLOelkman]

So I shot my White Ultra Mag today, shooting some Bullshops 460 gr. with 95 gr. Pyrodex P. Shot at 50 and 100 and things looked OK. So I tried some of the White Power Punch 460 gr. conicals and they shot OK as well, but not as good a group as the Bullshops. So I decided to shoot my Super 91. Shot 2 at 50 and it wasn't a great group but OK, I then shot at 100. First 2 were maybe 3 inches higher (I was only looking for grouping as I've not adjusted the peep) than the Bullshops then problems followed. The next shot I didn't think hit my 3'x3' target. Thought maybe I forgot to put a bullet in??? So shot another and it hit 13 inches low and sideways. Upon further inspection, I think shot 3 hit the far right side of the target sideways also. I was using 95 gr. for all shots so kinda surprised to see what happened to shots 3 and 4 of the White bullets. I did feel the barrel and it wasn't at all hot and I really wasn't shooting fast. I run 2 patches down the bore after every shot and they all seemed to come out about the same. Anyone ever have bullets tumble like this and any ideas what might cause this? My only wild guess is that I was perhaps too close to the bullet becoming unstable (too much powder/speed?) Just weird as the 1st 20 shots didn't have that problem but I only shot maybe 10-12 of the White bullets between the 2 guns.

 

[Fullbore92]

What was loading pressure like? We’re your bullets going down the barrel to powder real easy or with difficulty?

 

[COLOelkman]

Loading was quite easy and felt relatively consistent. I didn't notice any difference between the 2 bullet types.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

When your bullets are tumbling at relatively close range, or even further out, it is not due to excessive bullet spin, it is due to inadequate bullet spin. You didn't have enough powder, with the given rifling twist rate, to spin the bullet properly, and/or the bullet wasn't large enough in diameter to grip the rifling, and/or the bullet was too hard to obturate (expand at firing) with that particular powder and charge. You seem to have gotten by with shots 1 and 2, but I suspect the bullet holes weren't truly round. Try 110 gr. volume of Pyrodex P and see if your bullet holes are perfectly round at 100 and if so, then try that load at 200.

Also, when you see your bullet hitting higher at 100 yds. than 50 yds,, it means the muzzle is moving up in recoil before the bullet exits the muzzle. Again, that probably indicates inadequate velocity.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[COLOelkman]

Hmmm. The 4 shots before look to be perfect holes. Fyi, the higher hitting group of 2 at 100 (shots 3 and 4) is due to the sights not being adjusted as I was initially interested in how they group before I move the sights. The group at 50 were also higher so I'm certain the rear sight just needs to be adjusted. As for the bullet not engaging, Im kinda thinking perhaps the lube was not great as I hadnt touched them for like 10 years. Next time I'm gonna try better lube coverage and use a wad between the powder and bullet. Not sure I wanna jump the powder up to 110 as thats a very heavy load compared to what I've seen most people shoot. i could also try knurling the bullets as it did seem to me they are going down a little too easy perhaps.

 

[COLOelkman]

 

[COLOelkman]

Sorry if they are not oriented correctly!

 

[COLOelkman]

 

[Fullbore92]

Definitely try the wad first. I think that’ll really improve things. I don’t recommend going higher in powder charge. You’re already high at 95gn. My best groups with my Whites is 70-75 grains.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I agree between 75 and 90 gr powder shoot the best in my whites with conicals of that weight .
I would check and see if using that much powder leaded the barrel. Thats my guess as to why it is not stabilizing.
If the barrel is leaded. Clean it good and try again I would venture to say it will be good to go. And I always use a wad for over 70 gr to prevent leading

 

[Batchief909]

What 1874 said....^^^^^^^^^

 

[smokepolehall]

As an earlier post said obturate is not happening. So you need to seal off those grooves, wad could/should work. If not then gonna have to burn more powder, kick it in the butt n make it fatten up to seal.

 

[COLOelkman]

Final thoughts. My White bullets are listed as .503 and have the original blue lube on them. No idea how old they are but guessing the lube has shrunk a little being in a dryer climate like CO so perhaps they are "substandard". My Bullshops are listed as .504 but I don't think that small difference in dia. is a huge factor. I'll probably end up hunting with the Bullshops but still wanna try shooting more of my Whites since I have quite a lot of them. Next time at the range, I'll use wads and add a think coating of lube to all the bullets as all my bullets are older and perhaps the lube is not where it should be.

 

[ElDiablo]

I think the wad will do the trick for you.

 

[COLOelkman]

I think the wad will do the trick for you.

For wads, I found a bag that someone sent me from Circle Fly Wads some time ago. I tried them yesterday, although not with the White bullets I was having the tumbling issue with. I was wanting to start using them for any bullets I shoot. Problem is I only found one place that sells them and you have to buy 1,000 (for $21) which is likely way more than I'll shoot for several years. So anyone have recommendations where to buy wads, brands, etc. The ones I have say .510 Vegetable Fiber wad, .062 thick. So any suggestions where to get other wads as there's no muzzy shops that I know of in the Denver Area anymore.

 

[ElDiablo]

There’s a bunch of options for wads. Most common would be a lubed (or unlubed) wool wad. That’s what I’d try first with your conicals. You could also try veggie (vegetable fiber) or poly wads but I’d be surprised if the wool wads didn’t help your situation.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/50-cal-lubed-ox-yoke-original-rmc5000.html
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/174/1
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2509115162/
https://www.possibleshop.com/s-s-wads.html

 

[COLOelkman]

There’s a bunch of options for wads. Most common would be a lubed (or unlubed) wool wad. That’s what I’d try first with your conicals. You could also try veggie (vegetable fiber) or poly wads but I’d be surprised if the wool wads didn’t help your situation.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/50-cal-lubed-ox-yoke-original-rmc5000.html
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/174/1
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2509115162/
https://www.possibleshop.com/s-s-wads.html
View attachment 36044

Thanks El Diablo, looks like you get 100 for about 1/2 the price of 1000 so I might just be better off getting 1000 as I'd likely want maybe 2-300. Not sure of any difference between the vegetable wads vs. wool?

 

[ElDiablo]

Thanks El Diablo, looks like you get 100 for about 1/2 the price of 1000 so I might just be better off getting 1000 as I'd likely want maybe 2-300. Not sure of any difference between the vegetable wads vs. wool?

You’ll just have to try them to see if one makes more of a difference. I prefer polys or wool. A properly sized poly wad made a huge difference in one of my .451 Whites Super 91s. Another idea is to cut the base off a .50 sabot and use that under your conical.