Cooper of Montana - Muzzleloader

[52Bore]

I agree, good group - What is your load?

Also, I believe I read in this post that you are staying away from Smokeless - just an FYI, I heard the other day from a former NMLRA President that Savage hasn't built their smokeless ML in 3 years. He also said Savage had 140+ lawsuits from 2000-2006!

I love your walnut and blue, I guess the stainless barrel is OK-ha.

 

[SCHUNTER]

Nice groups. Beautiful muzzleloader! Looking forward to full range reports.

Scott

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Glad you guys approve. I believe he was shooting 110 grains of BH 209 with a Harvester 300 grain PT Gold. The upcoming range report will tell us for sure. The rifles come standard with blued barrels but switching to a stainless barrel is a free option. The entire action can be made of stainless for $150 extra. We also build them in left hand.

 

[SCHUNTER]

Glad you guys approve. I believe he was shooting 110 grains of BH 209 with a Harvester 300 grain PT Gold. The upcoming range report will tell us for sure. The rifles come standard with blued barrels but switching to a stainless barrel is a free option. The entire action can be made of stainless for $150 extra. We also build them in left hand.

Did you decide to offer a synthetic version??? If so cost.

Scott

 

[GM54-120]

That is a beautiful rifle for $1595, a bit pricy but what true custom build isnt. My NULA starts at $1800 and its about the least expensive in the current market.

Thoughts

1) There are far better bullets than the Harvesters. Those bullets are actually made by Rainier. FOR THE PRICE (40-50 cent each) though they are a very good bullet.

2) Stainless barrels on a blued action are ok but how about this: BlackIce the barreled action together for a uniform finish as an option. Its incredibly durable and very corrosion resistant. Looks nice too.

3) Don't sell yourself short on the SML option. There are currently no less than 6 SML manufacturers with a very very good safety record. Just because it is SML capable does not mean subs and real BP can not be used instead. Powders such as BH209 are right at home in these type of builds.

4) A carbine or lighter weight all weather "Mountain rifle" may be worth considering. Velocity loss is minimal with BH209 and a couple inches less barrel.

PS, Cooper can do better than Mr Bridges. His past is tainted beyond repair for many of us.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Smokeless is pretty much (but not 100%) out of the question.

I am sending another M22 ML to HP White labs to be destruction tested, if (more like when) things go as expected we will up the max allowable charge to 200 (because people keep asking about it). I personally would never use that much propellant but if the rifle will safely handle it & folks want to do it, I'll say "go for it".

I do plan on offering a synthetic version but it won't be until next year.

I have some ideas kicking around for a light weight version as well as a PNW compliant version. Those won't be until next year as well.

The stainless barrel on a blued action is very common on custom bolt action rifles, especially varmint/BR rifles. When Cooper began, it was the only option for some time. Some Cooper rifle styles come with blued barrels as standard & some come stainless as standard. However, on a Cooper, the customer can choose the barrel material & the cost is the same. Toby Bridges chose the stainless barrel, it was not mandatory, & was a no cost option.

We also offer Cerakote which is a "spray & bake" finish that is really tough & is available in many colors.

 

[GM54-120]

Personally i would not worry about load development past 150gr by volume of BH209. Safety testing sure with a RSI strain gauge preferably. Some tests ive seen show very little to no benefit going higher. IIRC Western powders has some unpublished technical data for "extreme" loads upto roughly 150gr by volume. Peak pressures were still within reason in a "over" built rifle.

My 52cal max load is roughly 91gr by weight. Its about all the punishment i can tolerate without a muzzle brake. Im not a big fan of brakes on a sabot shooter and they are awfully loud. About the only time i exceed this load is sabotless in my custom 45cal and i dont use much more.

 

[ENCORE50A]

There are people wanting to increase their velocity, shoot longer range, be more accurate and with heavier propellant charges. Recoil can be controlled and a lot of it is in the shooter's head. If a shooter is just target shooting, he/she can wear a PAST shooting pad. On the other hand while hunting and taking the shot, who notices recoil? :wink: Also, just because a rifle may be capable of 200grs propellant, it doesn't mean anyone has to shoot 200grs and can certainly reduce their charge. However the shooter who would prefer to shoot a heavier charge iss screwed with a 150gr Maximum charge rifle. He may as well save some money and spend $200 on a CVA and shoot good 100yd groups. Most of the problems with shooters trying a maximum charge in a production rifle, is that the rifle is just that....... it has a production barrel ..... and they can't achieve great long range accuracy. Post after post in just about all the different forums, all responders suggest to shooters who complain their rifle won't shoot a maximum charge to, 'back it down'.

A 200gr capable rifle gives the shooter many different choices of propellant ranges to chose from and, match his/her sabot and bullet of choice. A good custom rifle with a quality barrel will provide many options.....

 

[GM54-120]

A good SML provides even more options and far better performance for less cost per shot too. Even my NULA can meet or beat any sub load ive seen with a 275gr BE (2400fps+). I cant imagine spending more and getting less performance.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

This rifle is not intended to set the modern muzzleloading world on fire or push performance envelopes. It is intended to take proven technology, features, & performance and simply wrap them in a classy package with a high level of fit & finish. There is more to the price of a rifle than peak performance. Some see this & some don't, neither is wrong.

 

[ENCORE50A]

If a business was to put out a smokeless muzzleloader on the shelves to "Joe the hunter", they'd end up just like Savage did, in court non-stop.

I'm not totally positive and maybe Bestill will chime in but, I believe he's getting 2,400fps shooting BH209 at 100grs weighed (143grs volume) from his custom barreled and built rifles. Most states won't allow smokeless propellant during their designated muzzleloader seasons. I know mine don't and won't according to the MI-DNR. Many MI hunters rushed out to buy the Savage only to find out that they had to shoot BP or a substitute from it (short of the regular firearms season and only in zones 1 & 2 - CF zones).

 

[GM54-120]

Most states won't allow smokeless propellant during their designated muzzleloader seasons.

Would you care to elaborate where you found the data to back up this statement? It appears to me those states are in the minority. If one excludes the PacNW regs and states that ban pellets, i seriously doubt that is correct. This all becomes a mute point though because of the limitations once you no longer allow 209 primers and/or require full bore lead projectiles. Only powders that are very easily ignited then become useful during the ML season.

Then again, i shoot more for pleasure also and i greatly enjoy the savings or simply hunting during the regular firearms season with a ML as well. If i just bought a rifle strictly for ML deer season, i would have bought something cheap and "disposable".

 

[long shot]

I've talked to you on phone about the Friendship Inline shoot. My name is Robert Wetzler and if you really want to put your Rifle through its paces , bring it to Friendship at the Nationals in June or Sept. There are way more qualified people at these matches then all the so called experts writing articles, such as was mentioned. You will find every load you can think of that works. From BH 209 to Black powder with Paper Patch bullets . 1330 ft in velocity to 2400. You can witness shooting from 50 yds. to 500 accurately . Some of these rifles will be shooting Sabot and some greased conicals.

 

[ENCORE50A]

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/1246

http://muzzle-loaders.com/articles/regu ... -state.php

viewtopic.php?t=627&p=4285

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... /1158255/1

Just a couple...

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

It wouldn't matter if all 50 states allowed hunting with smokeless, it still would not be on the table at this time & may never be. It's just too early to tell at this point. Honestly, I am not really sure it's something that I'll push for, simply because of the super small share of the ML market it holds.

Again, this rifle was not created to increase performance. If that is what a consumer is looking for, there are other companies offering it & there is nothing wrong with that. I wish them the best.

Some folks can't fathom buying an expensive rifle that offers no gain in peak performance, there are also folks who can't fathom using a clunky rifle with a plastic stock regardless of how far into the stratosphere it will launch a projectile or how much powder it holds.

Different strokes for different folks, there is room for us all.

artyman:

 

[bestill]

My custom blackhorn gun shoots 327 mh 2400 fps and will kill anything that walks in north america out to 500 yds and with extreme accuracy with no wind will shoot 1 moa accuracy from0-500 yds.i see no need for smokeless personally but smokeless muzzleloaders are in a hole new league per accuracy.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I've talked to you on phone about the Friendship Inline shoot. My name is Robert Wetzler and if you really want to put your Rifle through its paces , bring it to Friendship at the Nationals in June or Sept. There are way more qualified people at these matches then all the so called experts writing articles, such as was mentioned. You will find every load you can think of that works. From BH 209 to Black powder with Paper Patch bullets . 1330 ft in velocity to 2400. You can witness shooting from 50 yds. to 500 accurately . Some of these rifles will be shooting Sabot and some greased conicals.

THAT would be the absolute best testing ground that could be had. :yeah:

 

[bestill]

Just shot over weekend in ky and winning group at 100 yds was .3
200 yds was .9
300 yds was 1.3
Smokeless gun built by Hankins
Also witnessed a .416 muzzleloader shoot4074 fps

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

I really wanted to make it to the May match at friendship but couldn't get approval to do so. I can already say with confidence that I will not make the match in June due to prior obligations in the Western US. However.....the September match is a very real possibility!! I doubt I'd win the match but it darn sure sounds like a good time, good testing ground, & a good chance for the rifle to stretch it's legs.

 

[GM54-120]

It wouldn't matter if all 50 states allowed hunting with smokeless, it still would not be on the table at this time & may never be.

I understand and i agree its not the best idea to jump in head first with your first ML offering. Just like a 45cal is best left to custom orders although technically speaking, ALL your rifles are custom ordered.

I still think the rifle is a good value at $1595. Nice wood and a true custom action at that price is not easily found. I assume you are using Timney or Jard triggers and offer others as an upgrade?