Did scope bite the dust or did I mess up gun

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daddy o

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What would be a good way to tell if scope bit the dust? Last year when I bought MY Omega Z5 I was looking for a decent scope for not much money. My buddy has a cheap scope on his Ml that seemed to have good clarity and a decent eye relief so I researched it. After reading several decent reviews I decided to give it a try with the hopes and intentions of replacing it with a better scope in a year or two. When I put this brand new scope on my brand new muzzleloader and went to the range, I was able to hold 1 1/4" groups (at 100yds) after I found the bullet/load combo that the omega liked. Needless to say I was impressed with gun. But I am an obssesive tinkerer. Always trying to make something better. Even though 1 1/4 is way more accurate than I need and that I probably can even shoot consistently I researched some ways to improve accuracy on the Omega. First thing I did was shoot two 20pks of hornaday full lead conicals through it because I read where this would help remove machining imperfections and make it a consistent shooter. I shot these at a reduced powder load so as not to waste too much powder and too not splatter lead and fill up rifling with lead. Next I floated the barrel by sanding the composite stock so I can easily slide a dollar bill all the way down to the first lug without any resistance whatsoever. I then pillered the stock by drilling out the mounting holes and epoxying aluminum tube back into holes that the ID just fit the mounting screws. Tube was cut to same length as thickness of stock it was going in. I also cut and fit a piece of oak between the 2 recesses that the lugs seat into to make that part of the stock stiffer and reinforce front lug against cracking. I also filled the butt of the stock with expandable foam to make it more solid and take out any hollow sounds when shooting. I also put a new scope mount on because the gorilla bases that I originally installed did not allow scope to be moved far enough forward and I banged my nose a couple times when working up load. Another modification I did that was not for accuracy and should not have anything to do with what is wrong now, is that I cut 1/4" off the trigger. I found that the Omega trigger guard is too small for the way the trigger system works and after shooting 30 to 40 rounds I had a nasty sore on my finger where it kept getting pinched on release between the trigger and guard.
Well anyways after doing all this work I went to range to see if it paid off. After resighting in I couldn't hold a 3" group. After shooting a pack of Barnes TEz's I gave up and just figured I was having a bad day. I have since been back to range and shot a pack of TEz's each time. It is still not very consistent and I did not have much faith using it during recent ML season.
I have checked and rechecked screws to make sure not loose and even loctited scope mount and ring screws. I am still using same bullet and powder combo that I was using when shooting 1 1/4" groups and still loading it same way with same amount of pressure, near as I can feel. What makes me think it may be the scope going bad is that a couple times when I was shooting and sighting in the last range session when I would adjust scope a couple clicks the poi would move way more than it should have. For instance first shot was about 3 inches below bullseye. I moved scope 12 clicks (1/4" per click) and hit about 4 inches above bullseye. I shot again to make sure I did not pull it that much and that shot hit right next to it. I then backed off 6 clicks figuring to split the distance and was still about 2 inches high. Went down 6 more clicks which basically undid the 12 I originally did and hit the bull. I shot again and hit bull again. Shot one more time and hit about 3 inches right. Shot several more times and could not hit bull again. I don't think I am pulling it that much. I am not sure how to know if scope is losing zero or if I really messed gun up. I don't have another consistent shooting rifle to try scope on or a better scope to try on Omega. Since I had eventually planned on replacing scope anyhow that is probably where I should start. I just hate to spend the money right now if I don't have to. Any ideas on anything else to check on rifle.
 
Is there any chance you changed the barrel harmonics by doing all that work? If you did, you would have to work up a new load. I found that my ML is very sensitive to charge weight and if you are off the node, your groups look like a shotgun at 50 yards. Hit the right load +/- 5 grains and they shrink down to 1 MOA and are fairly intolerant to temperature or exact charge weight. Go up 10 grains and they're all over the place again.

I wouldn't chase the bullets with scope adjustments either. 3 shot groups aimed at a 1" dot before you make adjustments. I also make scope adjustments on a gun vise so that the gun does not accidentally move.
 
Omega45 said:
Might want to check how you reassembled the stock. This person posted this on another forum and says it helped. Can't hurt to try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9cae6L9N78

That's a very good suggestion, which more than one shooter of the Omega has identified.

I would like to suggest, that after doing all the work to the barrel, I'd try switching to the TMZ bullet which will be a little tighter. I've tried different things with my Pro and what I get with one, is not what I get with the other. For example, with the TMZ and supplied sabot I can shoot a hole. I tried another shooter's crushed rib for that bullet and I wouldn't hold a 6" group. Put the TMZ and supplied sabot back in the barrel and back to the hole again.

Note: I edited this, as I made a typing mistake originally and suggested switching to the TEZ, when I should have typed TMZ.
 
Sometimes a scope just goes bad, that's what it sounds like when you were trying to adjust it and it wasn't responding correctly. Is there another scope to try? The you tube video on tightening the two mounting screws might help also, couldn't hurt to try it.
 
If you don't have a second scope, I'd offer two suggestions:

1) pick up some inexpensive bullets for zeroing in. Hornady XTPs are great. You could hunt with them or switch back to the Barnes for a final zero.

2) Recenter the scope by spinning the turret all the way in one direction, then, count the clicks all the way the other direction. It's typically around 300 clicks. Then, back the other way half the number of clicks. 150 in the example of 300 all the way.

This will bring you back to a starting point.
 
Good suggestions by everyone. Makes me want to go out right now and shoot some more. Unfortunately it will probably be a couple weeks before I can get back to range. I will definitely loosen and re tighten the stock as suggested in you tube video. I am pretty sure I may have changed the harmonics since before I floated barrel there was some slight pressure on it. I had not even considered that I may need to work up a new load since the previous load shot so well. Will definitely consider it now that you mentioned it. I also want to shoot TMZ's eventually but right now the TEZ's are pretty tight. I like the boat tail design and understand that it has a slightly better bc over the flat base.
I do have a 20pk of hornaday sst that I picked up for like 8 bucks a while back. So if re tightening stock does not work I will recenter scope as suggested and shoot up cheaper bullets to check consistency and then work up another load with preferred bullets if still not consistent. Then if that doesn't work I will probably put it back in closet until I can buy better scope sometime in near future hopefully.
I will try to report back in a couple weeks as to what if anything helped. Thanks!
 
Scopes can and do go bad at times. I happen to shoot Nikon and one of my Monarchs started giving me fits. For a couple thousand rounds, if I move that scope 2 clicks, it moved 1/2". All of a sudden that didn't happen and it started shooting wild. I sent it in for repair and found that both vertical and horizontal adjustments were perfect?????? Without searching for the invoice they sent back, it had something to do with the adjustment of COLLOMINATION (sp). It has something to do with the way the light waves going through the scope. As I understand it, light waves are supposed to remain a constant distance apart to infinity. Evidently........... what ever that was..... caused the problem. Go figure......?????
 
daddy o,

When you did all of this work did you change the position where the scope was mounted in the rings? If you have a ring mounted too close to a turret it is possible to bind up the tube inside of the scope.

Have you also checked to see if the Parallax setting has went bad? If you are not sure what I mean, there is a simple test you can do to see if it is bad. Put the Unloaded/Unprimed rifle in a set of bags on a bench so you are looking at a Target that is 100 yards out, don't really have to be paper but it will make it easier to see. Look though the scope at the target and without moving the rifle, Move just your head slightly up, down, and side to side while looking at the target. Does the crosshairs stay in one place or do they sort of follow your movement?? If they sit still then the parallax is ok, but if they move then it is bad. I have had this problem on a couple occasions and if you don't know to look for it you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out.

I don't have one of those rifles but, as for the stock... If your groups don't get better after working up a new load, you can try placing stips of paper in the stock to sort of reinstall the pressure points you removed. Cut some target paper into 1" strips and lay them across the barrel channel then put the barreled action back in and tighten down. Start with just enough to refill what you removed, shoot a group, then add another strip or 2. If the groups closed back up you may need to use bedding to permenatly reinstall what you removed. I think this is a last resort thing but on occcasion I have seen a couple rifles that did not like being floated.

Just a couple of thoughts..
 
I had scope problem and here is what I did to determine that it was the scope. First I took the scope off of the gun and shot two three shot groups at 50 yds with the iron sights to verify that it was not the gun. Then I put the scope back on and shot a three shot group. The points of impact began to wander in all directions. In my case between 5 and 10 MOA from shot to shot.. Then to verify that it was not a load problem I used a laser bore sighter to reset the point of impact to the center of the target. Then I would take a shot. After the shot I check the point of impact with the laser bore sighter again. I found out that after shooting the point of impact moved in the scope as the laser bore sighter no longer ended up in the center of the retical . After two more shots I rechecked point of impact with the laser bore sighter and it was in a different spot each time. The laser bore sighter ends up in the same spot each time and if it looks different in the scope, it is the scope. The more I shot it the worse it got.
 
Hey guys,
Unfortunately my work schedule and weather has not agreed and I have not yet gotten back out to the range. So I am not yet convinced my scope is at fault but I ran across a couple scopes that both seem like they might be worth a look. What do you think.

Weaver found here http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?co ... ID=WE94563
or
Toby Bridges Muzzle loader scope made my Hi-Luz Leatherwood found here http://www.namlhunt.com/specialoffers.html

Anyone have any experience with either or both for comparison sake?
Thanks
 
Finally got out today. Only about 12 degrees and a little breezier than I anticipated but the fact it was blowing straight at me and the dirt backstop at our range is 20ft high and all the way around back and down both sides I figured there wasn't enough turbulence at target to cause much problem. Here is what I did before I started. The scope was back far enough that the back ring was tight up against the turret section so I moved scope 3/4 in forward to make sure turret wasn't being bound up by tightening of ring. This was not good though because now I have to kind of lean my head forward to get a complete sight picture so I think I will probably end up getting a new scope because of inadequate eye relief. The two I posted earlier both have a farely small eye relief so they are probably both out. Back to rifle and adjustments. I tried to align crosshair to center of barrel as best as possible with use of one of these http://segwayreticleleveler.com/. I also loosened stock and re tightened screw closest to trigger guard first, as was stated in video that was posted. I also checked parallax as was suggested in earlier post. Crosshairs did not move as I moved my head up and down and side to side so I believe it is ok.
All shooting will be at 100yds. I then shot 3 TEZ's with 105gr BH209. About 3 inch group approx 8 inches above bull. I then switched to Hornaday SST and fired first shot at different target. It hit almost exact placement as the 3 shot TEZ group. So I made a 24 click down adjustment and shot 3 more SST's . Pretty decent group if I must say so. I will definitely use these for plinking purposes (unless Midway has truckload sale on Barnes again this summer). Then I shot another 3 shot group of TEZ's at another target. Decent group (about 2inches) but not as good as Hornaday. So I went to 100gr powder and shot 3 shots (2 1/4inch group). About same as 105gr. By this time hands were getting cold and I was running out of daylight. I decided to shoot one last 3 shot group using 110gr. 1st and 2nd shot were about 3 inches apart. Kinda bummed about that but I felt I may have thrown 2nd shot. I shot 3rd shot and laid it down on top of first shot. I thought holy crap, wonder if that was luck or maybe I really did throw the 2nd shot. So even though my hands were cold and I had told myself it was the last 3 shot group, I decided to shoot a 4th shot. Yep, laid it right on top of 1st and 3rd shots. Now that may have been luck but I'll take it. I went ahead and packed up, with a big smile on my face. I will definitely be going back soon and seeing if I can repeat success with the 110gr charge. First I have to decide if I want to purchase new scope or not, then I think I will buy a grain scale and start measuring charges for even more consistency. Will consider trying TMZ's also but if I can repeat clover leaf patterns I don't really see reason to switch bullets.
Now will try to post pics, hope it works.





Just found out you can only add 3 attachments so I deleted the TEZ 100gr powder picture as it looked almost identical to 105gr group.
 

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Sounds like your scope is fine. Maybe it was the torquing down of the stock bolts that caused the issue. Who knows. Glad its working for you and good shooting! :D

If you decide not to buy a different scope with better eye relief, another option would be to look at offset scope rings or scope mount that would allow the scope to come back further. It seems they are pretty popular on Omega's, especially the 1pc versions.
 
Looks like your consistency has returned. Sounds like the parallax looks good too. If you can repeat what you got today then my bet is on either how it was secured in the stock or moving that scope turret away from the ring or a combination of the 2. If you like the scope you could cut a bit off your stock length to accommodate the eye relief problem, just remember that it is easier to cut some off than to put it back. :wink: I have to shorten most of mine a little but I really had to cut some off to accommodate the use of a Nikon Monarch 4x40 I used for a long time. I think it was between 3/4" and 1".
 
Nice shooting :applause: , glad you got it dialed in again. I love the eye relief on my Nikon Omega scopes, the full 5 inches has saved my forehead a time or two.
 
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